That’s what Joanne Lipman said
The author’s take on equality in the workplace.
Joanne Lipman’s timely new book, That’s What She Said: What Men Need to Know (And Women Need to Tell Them) About Working Together (William Morrow), takes a close look at gender inequality in the workplace. It arrives in the midst of the sexual harassment scandal roiling Hollywood, the media and politics. A veteran journalist, Lipman until recently was editor in chief of USA TODAY and chief content officer of parent company Gannett. She chatted with USA TODAY’s Jocelyn McClurg in New York during a #BookmarkThis author chat on Facebook. Here are highlights:
Question: As a woman, it can be a bit discouraging to read your new book. So let’s start with this: How is it that 40-some years after the feminist movement, women still lag behind men in the workplace?
Lipman: In that sense it’s dispiriting, but in another sense I am encouraged, because we’re getting more men who are involved in this conversation. We’re never going to close this gender gap unless we get men involved. … There’s an institutional wall of sexism that still exists in the world. However, the reason I wrote the book is because I really do believe we are on the cusp of a new way of thinking, and if we push forward and hold on to this moment, we can actually change things. Women have talked about all of the issues we face at work for years. We talk about being being interrupted, underpaid, marginalized. But what we haven’t done is talk to men about it. Without men, women talking to each other is 50% of a conversation and can only solve half of the problem.
Q: You say don’t want to engage in man-shaming or male-bashing. Why?
talking to men, men are kind of clueless about the issues we do face in the workplace. We end up very much unintentionally demonizing good men. I have to say, the men I’ve worked with here at USA TODAY and at Gannett are terrific. My mentors were all men. I’ve had great experiences working with men. And it seems like these are men who would be our allies, who actually are interested in closing the (gender) gap if only they knew how.
Q: Your book mentions sexual harassment and the Harvey Weinstein scandal, but it’s not the focus. How do these issues intersect — women’s equality and sexual harassment?
Lipman: The book really is about solutions. We have exposed the problem of sexual harassment in the workplace. Where do we go next? Where do we go from here? Because sexual harassment is the extreme, it can only happen in an environment that enables it, and an environment that enables it probably is one in which women aren’t being paid, aren’t being respected, aren’t being promoted; you are being marginalized in some way. If you have an environment where women are treated equally, respected, promoted, part of the leadership, you are way less likely to have a problem like you had, allegedly, with Steve Wynn, the most recent example, or a Harvey Weinstein.
Q: Why should we be hopeful that things will change?
Lipman: The reason I’m hopeful is because I do feel that we are in a different point now. The zeitgeist has turned. Me Too has made a big difference in making awareness of these issues im- portant for men. When I first started talking about this in mixed company, men would shut up and just shrink away, and in the last couple of months I have men approaching me and saying, “Hey, I would really love to talk about this”… I think the way we’re going to solve this is to have women and men, both, understanding this is an issue for all of us. It’s not a female issue, it’s an issue for all of us together, and all of us can solve it together.