The Indian – Vincent
A parallel saga to the Vindian project featured last issue; the concluding story of the ill-starred Indian/Vincent collaboration.
In 1949, Ralph Rodgers, manager of the Indian factory in Springfield, Massachusetts was met by Philip Vincent with a view to Vincent Motorcycles being distributed in the USA by Indian Motocycles. Apparently the two got along very well and a joint proposition was put forward that a Vincent could be made to better suit American tastes. Unbeknown to Vincent, this was designed to help pull Indian out of a failing sales slump caused by their failure to develop an O.H.V engine to compete with Harley-Davidson on more equal terms. For Philip Vincent, it would give access to a massive dealer network in
which to sell his product including the supply of engine units. Unfortunately for Vincent he never realized that Indian at this time was close to being broke. Both men seemed happy with the agreement. It was decided that 2 proto-types be engineered; one in a standard Indian Chief frame, the Vindian, which was featured in OBA 44, and one to be Vincentframed, the Indian-Vincent, with Indian electrics, converted to left hand gearshift. Not many people realize that this model even existed. In 1949 a crate arrived at Stevenage from Springfield containing a complete Chief. Also included were the relevant bits to make the Indian-Vincent. Phil Irving mentions in his autobiography that a machine was taken from the service department F10AB/1/3492 which in fact is a misprint as this was not made till late 1950. The machine used was F10AB/1/2492 and this is easy to prove from the original photos which thanks to today’s technology can read the engine number quiet clearly. This eventually became the machine with a Blacknell sidecar attached that Phil returned to Australia with in 1949. It was easy to track the Australian registration number (VIC 53 148) and confirm the engine number and I now have a copy of Phil’s original registration certificate dated 17/03/50. After the publicity photos of the Vindian were taken the machine was stripped, the engine returned to its Vincent frame and assembled with the parts Indian supplied from an Indian vertical twin. This included Delco generator and regulator, park light for the front guard off an early version (not the famous Indianhead type), tail light assembly, base mount chrome G.E headlight, ignition/light switch, stop switch, horn and dipswitch buttons. The machine F10AB/1/2492 was in fact a Series C touring Rapide so was already fitted with touring mudguards and crash bars, wide handlebars and 3.50 x 19 front tyre and 4.00 x 18 rear tyre. As a 1949 model it had a plain motor. This was the transition period between H.R.D. and Vincent trademarks and the motor was H.R.D. Ground off crankcases were being used in the meantime so it had a later die-cast kickstart cover and Vincent timing cover fitted, although the Vindian was fitted with an H.R.D. timing cover, some photos exist with a Vincent timing cover fitted. Surprisingly plain rocker caps were fitted because these were not available at that time. Another strange thing was a handful of engines were manually stamped VINCENT, because in America the name and place of origin had to be cast or stamped on the crankcases as well as the manufacturer. These handful of engines existed between numbers 2000 and 3000 which again proves Phil Irving’s printing error as 3492 was a cast Vincent crankcase, as shown in the original photos. The proposed orders from Indian were 50 Vindians and 20 Indian-Vincents per week. This was a fairly good deal for Vincent but unfortunately it never
came to fruition. Vincent had in fact bought and ordered the material to produce these machines but never received the official order from the financially cash-strapped Indian Corporation. This put Vincent in a perilous position; so bad they were placed in the hands of the receiver, E.C. Baillie. Meanwhile the photos were taken of the IndianVincent. It was close to standard specs but it was not road tested as thoroughly as the Vindian, after the orders were cancelled. Philip Vincent gave orders that the Chief be returned to the Indian factory complete with its original Indian engine and the extra pieces supplied for the Indian-Vincent. There is speculation that Indian did in fact fit a Vincent engine back in this frame, as at this time Indian started distributing Vincents in America and therefore would have been capable of doing this. In fact this machine still exists and it is now part of the Du Pont family museum, previous owners of the Indian Motocycle Company. Phil Irving left England in October 1949 aboard the Orontes and brought with him the Indian-Vincent (with his tools and some spare parts piled in the sidecar) which had been returned to standard specification. Phil eventually traded the outfit for a Vauxhall Wyvern car in 1953 and lost contact with the motorcycle.
In 1970 Philip Vincent wrote an article for Motorcycle Sport Quarterly, an American magazine, titled The Indian That Might Have Been. I bought this magazine as I was interested in Vincents and like most people was repulsed by the photo of the Vindian. I wondered why the Indian-Vincent had never been produced. Little of the technical specs were available but detailed shots of both sides of the two machines were included. In 2001 I bought a Vincent motorcycle in pieces that had been raced in its earlier years. It was basically all there and I remember thinking of how much trouble some one must have taken to make up a die to stamp VINCENT on the crankcases, as it was an excellent job. I was also amazed that the pictures in Motorcycle Sport Quarterly of the Indian – Vincent’s crankcase were stamped in the same manner. Months later in an article in M.P.H., the Vincent Owners Club magazine, I discovered that it was in fact a factory modification used on engines numbered between 2000-3000.
I contacted Robin Vincent-Day, Philip Vincent’s son-in-law as he was advertising an INDIANVINCENT tank decal and I asked him to send a photo. I also asked if he could send me any information about this little known Vincent. Robin was very helpful and in fact sent me not only the information but also four previously unpublished photos of the left hand and front-on shots of the Indian-Vincent. At this time I casually mentioned the way the Vincent crankcase was stamped in the photos was the same as the machine I had. Could it possibly be the same one? I told him the numbers on my engine and he then sent me blow-ups of the crankcase numbers in the photos. We were utterly amazed when they turned out to be the same number. I remember running out to the garage as the enlarged photo came up on my computer screen checking and rechecking that the numbers
were in fact the same. I am indebted to Robin and Deidre Vincent-Day for the help in confirming the history of my bike. This news put me in a dilemma as to how to restore the bike. I had two options. I could build an Indian-Vincent or restore it to Phil Irving’s original outfit of a touring Rapide with Blacknell sidecar. I decided that Phil’s outfit would look just like any other Vincent with a Blacknell sidecar attached so this left the only option, to restore the original bike I had wondered about all those years ago. The gearchange conversion proved to be tricky. The brake swap was achieved by using a Comet brake cable and the generator conversion by jackshaft is strange. The ignition/light switch mounted in the centre of the handlebars is very weird considering it’s a Lucas magneto, the tail light is a real bolt-on afterthought and I can see why those lugs were cast but never used on the Girdraulics for the headlight; this is the lug used in the Indian application. I found a Blacksmith to fabricate the mount for the headlight. The horn mounts on the engine where the coil fits on a Series D. Pictures show the battery as a block of wood as apparently Indian never sent one of their batteries to Vincent. I have fitted a 12V battery in the modified battery carrier; this is great for modern lights. In January 2004 I was lucky to get copies of the photos that I first saw in Motorcycle Sport Quarterly. These were excellent for detail and proved invaluable in restoring this unique motorcycle. I decided that the restoration of this bike should change in detail specs for practicability. Air filters are a must here so I fitted optional Amal filters. The paint work was originally black and we decided that it would look just like another Vincent with some funny bits from an Indian fitted which after doing the gear change conversion and generator conversion is far from that! I know both Vincent and Indian listed Chinese Red as a colour option. Vincent painted some bikes all Chinese Red for the American market but some others were “multicoloured” – mainly black with red tank and mudguards (fenders), I decided this was a good idea so I went with this scheme as it is a simple job to paint these parts later for the authentic colour. I took the Indian-Vincent to the Vincent Owners Club National Rally in South Australia on 5th November 2004, fully restored and rode it 250 miles without any problems. Vincent owners were pleased to see P.E.I’s Vincent back on the road again. Some were un-aware it even existed. Vince Farrel, Machine register man for the V.O.C UK, attended the rally. Looking up factory records the bike was intended for the Indian Sales Corp but obviously it never got there. When I attended the Indian Owners Club Christmas party in December, the Indian Owners were equally as enthusiastic about the machine – even more so than my 1947 Chief – and asked that I go on it to their rallies. Now you may ask, would the Indian-Vincent have saved Indian? Well it would have had to have more development on the gear change. The bike never had a formal road test like the Vindian and it did not change gears very well as the factory engineered it. The trouble to make it a right hand rear brake to suit Indian owners was not worth all the effort. The gear change lever had about 5 inches of lever movement throughout its arc, and I have halved this with rose joints instead of the clevises that Vincent originally used. The original lash-up the factory used for the generator in the factory photos show the generator belt loose on the pulleys, so I fitted a modern multi-groove belt which works very well. The electrical system is now 12v instead of 6v. As previously mentioned the factory fitted a block of wood which was neither voltage. I think Indian did the right thing in the end by just importing standard Vincents, as the Indian-Vincent would have been still unfamiliar to the traditional Chief/Scout owner. Possibly for Vincent it was easier to sell complete machines which would have been cheaper to produce than a hybrid of both manufacturers, but Vincent would have benefited more than Indian overall.