How do you respond to that, Tony?

TJ It makes a lot of sense. The challenge is how to create an ecosystem for innovation within the business. We are pretty good at businessas-usual innovation, which I also call “adjacent innovation”. But in terms of transformational innovation, we really struggle. Do you buy it in or do you set up a separate part of the business and then integrate it back into the business? We’ve probably gone more down that latter path. The ideal world is innovation at speed, technology at scale, but still be human-centred.