“EUROPE MUST PREPARE ITSELF FOR DIFFICULT TIMES AHEAD”
Brexit will soon become a reality, with Great Britain initiating its legal separation from the European Union. Meanwhile, an influx of West Asian refugees has given the continent its biggest humanitarian crisis since World War II. This might also be one o
KT: Why are major western democracies suddenly becoming subject to right-wing populism—whether it’s Trump, whether it’s Brexit, whether it’s the threat of Geert Wilders in the Netherlands or the possibility of Marine Le Pen? What is this telling you about what’s happening in the West?
NS: You must understand the anguish, that in a certain sense, is gripping the West. For centuries, the main axis of the world was the western axis. The West dominated because, demographically, we had the most people. But now the axis of the world is an Asian axis. Four of the seven billion people on Earth are now in Asia. The West is today a demographic minority. Demography makes history. So, there is a sentiment, a fear of the disappearance of our model and culture, which creates identitarian stress. And this gives the extremist a chance to ride on these fears. This change is nothing compared to what is in store—by the end of the century there will be 11 billion people on the planet. How many inhabitants can live on this earth, how do we regulate the streams of migrants? Will this demographic explosion not lead to the extinction of a certain form of humanity?
KT: What global impact might Donald Trump have? His election win and two months in office have already shaken people. What might be the outcome four years from now? NS: Trump has been elected whether one wants to deny it or not. We have to work with the President of the United States. When Barack Obama was elected, everyone loved him. When Trump came to power a lot of people didn’t like him—but the United States is what it always was. You don’t work with a country because you like the personality of its president; you work with a country because of what it is. The United States is the world’s biggest economic and military power. The world is now multipolar. This creates an amazing opportunity for a gigantic country like India, which should play a role like it did during the climate conference and take on big issues, just like the US does. KT: Trump wants a closer relationship with Russia but his attitude to Xi Jinping is more muscular. What does the relationship between these three countries mean for India?
NS: It changes current affairs but it doesn’t change things fundamentally. I like Mr Obama a lot, but I wasn’t in agreement with him when he said that the big problem of the world was Putin. The big problem of the world is terrorism. China is a huge country, one that the world needs, but it must understand that it also has obligations. And the less one agrees with a country, the more one should speak to it. Once we understand the interests—the strategic and vital interests of a country—it becomes possible to find a solution. I remember when Mr Putin had the bad idea of invading
“If you go to a country, you must respect it. If you don’t want to adopt the culture of that country, you can stay at home. For me, it’s the last one to arrive who must adapt to those who are already there.”
Georgia—three days later I was in his office in Moscow, looking for a way to settle things. And we did find a way out. It wasn’t a perfect solution, but we found it. If we only speak to those we agree with, the conversation will soon be over. India can help countries to have dialogue with each other. India is the world’s biggest democracy, has a diversity of cultures, of languages, of religions—and it works. You can bring to the world the tradition of dialogue, of understanding, of respect of differences which you have within you. You have been able to build, from this extraordinary mosaic of differences, a functioning democracy. That is the envy of others.
KT: Are you saying that migrants, when they go to another country, must follow the identity and culture of that country? That multiculturalism is somehow a mistake?
NS: I believe in multiculturalism. When we go to an Arab country, Carla (Bruni)covers her shoulders and her arms. If you are invited to a country, you must respect that country. If you don’t want to adopt the culture of that country, you can stay at home. For me, it’s the last one to arrive who must adapt to those who are already there. If you don’t want to adopt the way of life in France, you should go elsewhere. KT: Why do the French believe that wearing a turban in school or in public places is in conflict with secularism? To us, secularism permits everyone to wear whatever religious symbols they want. Why is it a problem in France? NS: In schools in France, we don’t want to recognise children by their religion. If you want to go to a religious school, you have the right to do that. But if you don’t, you have the same dress without any signs of religion. We have the right to ask for our French identity to be respected. Everybody has the right to ask for their identity to be respected. sight of men, that is a fundamental disrespect of equality. I think that girls should be able to select their own husbands, to dress the way they want to. What does this have to do with the Sikhs and their wearing of turbans? KT: Do you think the attitudes in Europe regarding Islam are an understandable response to fear, or is this thinlydisguised racism?
NS: In Europe we have a problem—not with all Muslims, but with a section of them. It is deeply upsetting when young people, born in France and brought up in France, are led to hate France. Youngsters born in France are less integrated than their grandparents, who came from Algeria or Tunisia. It’s not a question of racism. We have experienced the horror of terrorism in Paris, and many perpetrators were French. France cannot allow its inhabitants to be killed. So, in France we say everyone can follow their own religion, everyone can follow their own culture but you must respect France. And nothing can justify or excuse killing people. Democracy cannot be feeble or weak when it comes to terrorists. KT: India believes Pakistan supports terrorism—the Mumbai attack of 2008 and those at Pathankot and Uri. Are western countries doing enough to rein in Pakistan?
NS: Is Pakistan doing enough? No. I’m not the only one to think that or to say that. Is the situation in Pakistan simple or easy? No. Should we encourage everything that can help India and Pakistan to have a better relationship? Yes. But at the end of the day, we will win the battle against terrorism if we are together—if we are all together. We must all put pressure on Pakistan so that the guilty are brought to justice. It means that there can be no weakness when it comes to dealing with terrorism, not here, not anywhere. This subject will become more and more pressing—don’t believe that it will be resolved just by defeating Daesh in Syria. We need to identify the killers who today are in Syria but are now coming back to their home countries. It’s going to take longer than we are willing to admit. KT: Could you explain to the audience why France—which stands for human rights—seems to be denying Muslim women the right to wear burkinis or the hijab, and has a problem with Sikh students wearing turbans?
NS: It is not true to say that in France young Muslim girls freely choose to wear a burkini or to cover themselves in a prison made of cloth. Behind them stands an elder brother or a family that dictates their behaviour. From the very soul of my being, I believe in equality between women and men. I will never accept that men can consider that the body of women as something diabolical. Everyone should live their culture—I respect that. But when you say that the body of a woman is so tempting that it has to be masked from the KT: Who is going to be the bigger loser from Brexit—Great Britain or the European Union?
NS: The second largest European economy leaving is a loss for Europe. It’s also a loss for Great Britain—are you sure that in a few years Great Britain will not have problems with Scotland? When divisions start, they don’t end. And I would like to tell you something—the most unstable and cruel continent in the world is not Africa, it’s not Asia, it was Europe—where we assassinated 6 million Jews. If we have become the most civilised and stable continent in the world it’s because of the European Union. Europe must prepare itself for very difficult times ahead. KT: Are you worried that Angela Merkel, who’s been in power for 11 years and who opened her door to Muslim migrants, could now be looking at a possible defeat?
NS: I loved working with Ms Merkel. We disagreed on a lot of issues but we always overcame them. But to fight her you need to be a strong personality. She’s a lady who has brought honour to Germany; she has served her country well.