“NEITHER COUNTRY WILL GET EVERYTHING IT WANTS—WE WILL HAVE TO MAKE TRADE-OFFS”

On his visit to New Delhi on June 26, US Secretary of State MIKE POMPEO engaged in intensive discussions with his Indian counterpart, External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar. They spoke about sorting out contentious issues bedevilling the relationship between the two countries, apart from furthering areas where their interests converge. Pompeo spoke exclusively to Group Editorial Director (Publishing) RAJ CHENGAPPA on what he saw as the big takeaways of the visit:

QBefore you came to India, our two countries were literally throwing punches at each other, on the trade front, on purchases of oil from Iran, on arms purchases from Russia, and other issues. You met Prime Minister Narendra Modi and foreign minister S. Jaishankar today as well as national security advisor Ajit Doval. What are the big takeaways, and where would you say India-US relations stand after this?

I’m not sure I’d agree with you about the punch-throwing. Look, these are serious matters, things that friends and partners have to work through, but when I stare at the opportunity between our two countries—you’ve

got a prime minister who got more votes than anyone in the history of the world, and you share a value set, a democratic value set with the United States of America. And your people... your people engage with Americans at every level, across the world, in the United States, in India, in other places too. What we spent a long time talking about today was how we can truly make this a different age, a different time. We can be more ambitious in our relationship. And so, these issues, the trade issues, military issues, defence cooperation issues... we can make those positives. I’m confident that we can, and I know President [Donald] Trump is committed to that as well.

Q. And if there’s a big takeaway [from the discussions], what would that be?

It would be that there’s a real commitment. I had not met my [Indian] counterpart before, so it was great to get a chance... I had spoken to him on the phone, and many, many Americans know him from his time as the ambassador to the United States, so there’s already a deep understanding of his vision for how our two countries can work together. And then, when I had a chance to meet the prime minister—he’s going to see the president in just a couple of days in Osaka... They’ll get to build on what we talked about today, but in every interaction with the Indian leadership, there was a deep understanding that [not only] for the sake of our two peoples, but for the region and the world as well, America and India need to be good, solid, reliable partners. We benefit in the United States from India, and we know too that you benefit from a relationship with us.

Q. On trade, India feels the US is being unnecessarily hard on it, especially by withdrawing the GSP (Generalized System of Preferences). Given that America’s trade deficit with India is around $24 billion, compared with around $400 billion with China, why did the US decide to come down on India by withdrawing the GSP, and what does India need to do to have it restored? We’re going to work to fix it. We’re going to work to restore these relationships. I’m very confident we can. I know the GSP is a big deal to India... I don’t think anyone would be surprised to know that trade and trade deficits matter an awful lot to President Trump... I’m confident that when two coun

“WE CAN BE MORE AMBITIOUS IN OUR RELATIONSHIP. TRADE, MILITARY, DEFENCE... WE CAN MAKE THOSE POSITIVES”

tries of goodwill work together, we can work our way through this. Make no mistake. Neither country will get everything it wants when that deal is put together, when it’s ultimately resolved. Each country will have to make trade-offs... but that’s what friends do. They develop relationships, they work together... and when we’ve solved that, we’ll be betteroff. I’m reminded, constantly, that there are countries we don’t have trade friction with. We just don’t trade with them! We have an enormous economic relationship between our two countries, and it is absolutely inevitable that countries that have a relationship as deep, as strong, as economically connected as ours, will from time to time find places where they just can’t quite figure it out for the moment. We’ll figure this one out.

Q. But there seems to be a duality of approach. You talk tough on trade. You’re sweet on defence and other issues. Where is this coming from?

No, no, I think we’re tough on everything... India’s tough on everything too! We have an obligation to do our best to make sure that our countries are well represented. I’m confident that Prime Minister Modi and Mr Jaishankar are going to represent India well—our trade representatives will represent US well. But I hope the Indian people will come to see that... we shouldn’t focus on the differences, the things that cause challenges.

We talk about localisation challenges, all these things that are in the news. These are the small piece of the relationship. What I wish reporters would talk about is the enormous relationship between the two countries, the enormous opportunity we have—between us, 1.7 billion people, democratic institutions all around. If we focus on those, work through the challenges... When we solve these problems, there will be other ones— you can write it down. It’s the nature of friendships and partnerships. We’ll play cricket with each other, right, it’s going to happen. We’ll have different views. The American and Indian people should understand that’s just the course of a relationship. When we work through them, resolve these problems, both people will be so better-off. When we do that together, this region will be better-off too.

Q. On the positive side, especially on terror, America has backed India strongly, particularly with Pakistan, if you see the recent listing of Masood Azhar as a UNdesignated terrorist, Pakistan on the grey list of the FATF (Financial Action Task Force)... But Islamabad somehow doesn’t seem to get it. In your interaction with Ajit Doval, did you talk about prosecuting the terrorists who target India, whether it’s Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim or Masood Azhar?

The NSA and I talked at great length about terrorism, we both reaffirmed our commitment. No terrorism anywhere is acceptable. We talked about Iran, the world’s largest state sponsor of terror, the serious threat that it poses to the world. This administration has made our expectations clear to Pakistan: they can’t be supporting terror, whether it’s crossborder terror between Afghanistan and Pakistan or terror that emanates from Pakistan and comes to this country. It’s unacceptable. We’ve changed that relationship. It’s different than what it was in the previous administration. We’ve taken this far more seriously because we recognise the threat it poses to the people of India, to the people of Afghanistan and the opportunity of a reconciliation there. It’s dependent on Pakistan not providing sanctuary to terrorists. We’ve been unambiguous with them. We still have a lot of work to do. But I always remain hopeful that Pakistan will choose the right course. For the Pakistani people, it’s the best outcome.

And I am excited that we are able to work with India on counter-terrorism, certainly in the region. But we do that more broadly as well. It’s a powerful partnership between our two countries— countering terror everywhere we find it.

Q. Did you focus on some of the key individuals—Dawood Ibrahim, Hafiz Saeed, Masood Azhar?

We talked about Masood Azhar a bit. That was something we worked very, very hard on, to get that across the finish line. We are happy it was the right outcome. We spent time talking about a

“THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE EXPECTATIONS CLEAR TO PAKISTAN.

THEY CAN’T BE SUPPORTING TERROR. IT’S UNACCEPTABLE. WE’VE CHANGED THAT RELATIONSHIP”

handful of other individual cases as well. I don’t want to get into the details. The NSA will talk about that if he wants to. Suffice to say, we know who these bad actors are, we know precisely the threat that they pose to India and the world. And the US will be a very capable partner in pushing back against these threats.

Q. The US State Department report on religious freedom released recently criticises India for rising communal violence. India has rejected these allegations. Did this come up during your conversations today, and what do you have to say about it right now?

I have spoken about religious freedom widely. Religious freedom is central to democracy. Every human being should have the right to practise their own religion or not practise religion if that’s what they choose. I know it’s at the centre of democratic values here in India as well. I’m confident our two countries will continue to work towards that. America is not perfect either. We don’t always get it exactly right. We try to be critical of ourselves when we don’t get it right.

Q. The US has threatened sanctions against India if we buy oil from Iran. But India is concerned it will be deeply affected if a conflict breaks out between the US and Iran. Would there be such a conflict if Iran doesn’t comply, and what are you doing to meet India’s energy needs? For India’s energy needs, we are working diligently to make sure it is fully supplied with crude oil and at a good price, too. America cares about affordable energy for Indian citizens as well. As for the challenge with Iran, America has done everything it can to de-escalate. If there’s conflict, if there’s war, if there’s kinetic activity, it’ll be because the Iranians made that choice. I hope they do not. I don’t think they should ever mistake President Trump for not being prepared to defend American interests around the world, and I hope the world will come to defend that waterway that is so central to the Indian economy. PM Modi spoke with me about it today. A significant piece of India’s needs, not only energy but more broadly, comes through the Strait of Hormuz, transiting that space. The world needs to unite to ensure free and open navigation in that waterway. When we do that in a serious way, it will deter a reign of aggression and we’ll get Iran to behave like we’ve asked them to. We just want them to behave like a normal country.

Q. On India’s purchase of S-400 missiles from Russia, would you permit a waiver on CAATSA (Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act) because of India’s long-standing ties with Moscow?

I don’t want to get ahead of decisions we’ll make with respect to that. We have expressed our concerns about that weapon system and how difficult it sometimes is for America to participate alongside folks who are employing that weapon system; that’s a very real concern and I know that our arms department’s defence and your military will work through as many of the technical challenges as we can. We’ll respond in the way partners do: we’re candid, we’re frank, we’re upfront about our risks, concerns, the things we have to do and we’ll work through that as well.

Q. Finally, when will President Trump visit India?

Soon, I hope. Prime Minister Modi and he will have a chance to meet, and Prime Minister Modi, I’m sure, will invite him here.

“AMERICA HAS DONE ALL IT CAN TO DE-ESCALATE. IF THERE’S CONFLICT, IF THERE’S WAR, IT’LL BE BECAUSE THE IRANIANS MADE THAT CHOICE” “RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IS AT THE CENTRE OF DEMOCRATIC VALUES IN INDIA. I’M CONFIDENT OUR COUNTRIES WILL CONTINUE TO WORK TOWARDS THAT. AMERICA IS NOT PERFECT EITHER”