‘Fadnavis said he will groom my son Aditya as CM, and he would move to Delhi... made me look like a liar’

MAHARASHTRA IS a critical piece of the election puzzle this time — since the last Lok Sabha election of 2019, the traditional “communal vs secular” battlelines have been rearranged beyond recognition, after Shiv Sena and NCP splintered, and both government and Opposition were reconstituted. On the Opposition side, an unlikely alliance has taken shape — between Congress, Shiv Sena (UBT) led by Uddhav Thackeray and the NCP (SP) led by Sharad Pawar. At Matoshri in the leafy Mumbai enclave of Kalanagar, a day ahead of the first phase of polling, The Indian Express caught up with Uddhav Thackeray, the man who is most in the spotlight. He is seen to have borne the brunt of the political disruption, with the bulk of his MLAS migrating to the Shiv Sena led by Chief Minister Eknath Shinde, which formed the government with the BJP; he has cast his lot with his “secular” opponent, and is now fighting his old “Hindutva” ally. Excerpts from an interview:

The INDIA group, of which you are now a part, put up its first and last big show here last month at the conclusion of Rahul Gandhi’s Bharat Jodo Nyay Yatra in Mumbai. Did the yatra have any impact? Has the alliance been too late in getting off the ground?

Congress cadre bikhra hua tha (was fragmented), it has been energised. Till 2023, people were afraid to speak, not any more. Now they feel democracy is in danger. If Rahul or I come out, people think someone is there (against the BJP), they also find courage to speak against jhoothe vaade (false promises).

I was watching a Youtube video yesterday, in which a farmer was asked if he had got Rs 6,000 (of Pm-kisan). He said that I pay Rs 1 lakh for fertiliser in a year, and 18 per cent, Rs 18,000 as GST. So I have got Rs 6,000 from the government, but the governmentow es me rs 12,000. Earlier, dar ka mahaul tha (there was an atmosphere of fear). Now people think inko hara sakte hain (BJP can be defeated).

Everything has its time. If two years ago we had said dictatorship, people would not have believed us. Today, saamne aa gaya hai, it has come to the fore.

But isn’t the realignment of political forces in Maharashtra causing confusion for the people?

Where did it start, the people can see. We were with the BJP on “Hindutva” and “desh (nationalism)”. Why did BJP do this to us (split the alliance and the Sena)? My father had said, you take the

country, we will look after the state. Achcha chal raha tha (it was going well). My father died in 2012, Modi came to my home. In 2014, when Modi was sworn in as PM, it looked like a dream come true. Baad mein unki chaal alag ho gayi (they started behaving differently) after Amit Shah became party president. Before the 2014 assembly election, Shah asked us, have you done a survey. I said, ham ladne wale log hain (we plunge into the fight), we don’t do surveys. Shivaji did not do a survey. If the survey says you are losing, will you give up the fight?

Earlier senior BJP leaders like Pramod Mahajan, Gopinath Munde and Nitin Gadkari would come to negotiate with the Sena, there would be kheencha taani (to and fro). Now, they started with arrogance and figures, and sent Om Mathur (BJP leader from Rajasthan) to talk to us. The BJP calculated that with Balasaheb gone, this was the time to strike. Their guarantee is to use and throw. That’s what they finally did to me in 2019.

I had promised my father that there would be a Shiv Sena chief minister and it was agreed with Amit Shah that the Sena and BJP would have a CM for 2.5 years each. Devendra (Fadnavis) had said that he would groom my son Aditya as CM, and he would himself move to Delhi. They made me look like a liar to my own people.

Show me one (BJP) ally who is happy. In NDA today, there are only toote phoote log (broken and battered parties). That’s also what they do to their own leaders.

When you face the people, how will you explain your own change of position?

There can be some confusion. But people are also angry with those gaddars (betrayers) who are going to the other camp (Shinde Sena). Because they (BJP) are using ED, putting pressure. There is a saying among the people here: “Pannas khoke, ekdum ok (pay Rs 50 crore, buy a leader, it’s alright)”.

I say that the BJP is now a vacuum cleaner, it sucks in the corrupt and gives them a clean chit — Praful Patel, Ashok Chavan, Ajit Pawar. It’s no party with a difference — its tactics are party todo (break parties), ghar todo (destroy families), unleash raids… Its guarantee is khokhli (hollow). After demonetisation, Modi said give me 100 days. In April, 2024, it has been over 2700 days, what happened? They said they will double farmers’ incomes, but only farmers’ expenditure has doubled.

The Shiv Sena was founded on “Marathi asmita”. How do you define it today?

In the last 10 years, where has the big industry gone? For us the villain is those who want to impoverish Maharashtra. Industry that was supposed to go to Maharashtra has gone to Gujarat. Gujarat is also a part of my country, but it is the Modi government that is erecting a wall between Gujarat and the rest of the nation. Vedantafoxconn was supposed to come to Maharashtra, went to Gujarat, it is another matter that they couldn't stay there, investment did not happen at all. The country lost out. Out of three semiconductor companies, two will be set up in Gujarat.

The Modi government’s flagship schemes across the country, free rations, cooking gas, Jan Dhan, Ayushman have touched a huge section of people…

That’s having a negative effect now, it will boomerang. You are giving people free grain, why don't you give them jobs? When I go to rural areas, I say that this government did not let farmers come to Delhi with their demands, branded them as antinational and even terrorists. Farmers did not come from China, they are only asking for implementation of the Swaminathan panel recommendations.

BJP says there are four castes — young, farmers, women and poor. Where are the jobs for the young? You turn a deaf ear to the kisan. Amit Shah as home minister appeared not to know about the crime against women in Manipur on his government’s watch. And you keep the poor in poverty.

You are now an opponent of the BJP but your party shares its core ideology of Hindutva.

Our Hindutva is different from their Hindutva. Our Hindutva is ghar ka chulha jalane wala (to keep the home fires burning). BJP’S Hindutva is ghar jalane wala (one that burns down the house).

We are not against Muslims, only against desh drohi (those who betray the nation).

Surely, that’s a shift in what the Sena stood for. The Sena was known for its role in the 1992-93 communal violence in Mumbai. And for digging up pitches when India played cricket with Pakistan.

There is no shift. People misunderstood Balasaheb, now after a generation the misunderstanding is clearing. In 1992-93, the violence started in Behrampada. Today the Shiv Sena has a Muslim corporator from Behrampada.

When the pandemic struck, as chief minister, I did not discriminate. We gave the Dharavi model, also worked in Malegaon. I have left BJP, I have not left Hindutva. But isn’t the Hindu unemployed? They also need education, loans for farming, jobs outside agriculture for the next generation, money to get married.

How do you respond to the BJP when it says it has built the Ram temple at Ayodhya?

They must talk of rozi-roti (bread and butter issues) first. They must tell us what they are fighting the election on — issues of farmers-women-poor-youth or Hindutva? The BJP did not make Ram mandir, it was a decision of the court.

We (Sena) took responsibility for the demolition of the (Babri) masjid, as CM I have spoken in the assembly on Hindutva. People know it.

But for me today, the biggest issue is that I want a Bharat sarkar, not Modi sarkar. Ek hi party rahegi toh (if only one party remains), this is most dangerous for the country. In my father’s time, we thought there should be a strong government. But Atal ji ran a coalition government successfully, Narasimha Rao’s government brought economic reform. Now, samay ke anusar (times have changed), the country needs a government that takes along many parties.

If such a coalition government is formed, and if your Sena is part of it, will India play cricket with Pakistan?

I will certainly not eat cake with Nawaz Sharif (as Modi did). The BJP only talks of Pakistan, but why doesn’t it answer on China? Today, China is coming into your territory, changing names of your places. It is not playing cricket.

Do you foresee a possibility of going back to the BJP?

Why would I do so? I have been betrayed more than once. To me, the BJP’S real face has been bared.

Amit Chakravarty