IN HIS OWN WORDS: WHAT WOULFE TOLD REVIEW
EXCERPTS from the transcript of former Chief Justice Susan Denham’s review, on September 8, with Judge Séamus Woulfe.
On how he feels he was treated since the event:
JUDGE WOULFE: Can I make another point? I’ll try and stay calm about it, because this is upsetting. With the benefit of hindsight of course I would not have gone to the dinner because of the vilification that I have suffered in the media since and the complete lack of fair procedures by the media and numerous politicians, including [text redacted here].
And I would not have inflicted that unjust attack on my good name, on myself, my family, my friends, my colleagues, and the judiciary. And this prejudgment by media and politicians that don’t know any of the facts and they have shown no interest in knowing them. And other than this forum, Judge, I’m grateful to you [ words missing] can I just make this comment. As a judge I don’t regard myself as a part of an elite, the way the media describe it, that is above the law or above guidelines?
On hearing of Minister Dara Calleary resigned
JUDGE WOULFE: So going to bed on Thursday night I had driven back, another very long drive back up to northeast Donegal and before I went to bed that night I was back to my news addiction and I flicked on the headlines on, I know I shouldn’t, on The Examiner newspaper and I was astonished to see they had as a lead story something about Dara Calleary attending a golf dinner and I said, ‘this is the greatest load of rubbish ever now.’ I don’t know, on the Thursday night had they mentioned my attendance or anybody else, but they had a breaking story that
Dara Calleary attended a dinner. I thought nothing of it.
I thought, ‘Jesus, they’re really scraping the barrel here during the silly season in August.’ But then I woke up the next morning and I think the phrase is, I was absolutely dumbfounded to hear that Minister Calleary had resigned or been forced to resign by the Taoiseach, on account of him having attending the dinner. And it was a summary dismissal kind of atmosphere that he had done something terribly wrong. And I was absolutely dumbfounded and shocked.
So I hadn’t been aware of any breaches of the Regulations or Guidelines at that stage. I still hadn’t when I saw the news of Dara Calleary resigning and I was astonished. I tried to wrack my brain, you know, ‘God, was there something here that I’ve missed? What are they talking about?’
On calls for him to quit
JUDGE WOULFE: I was getting journalists ringing me, texting me, people calling for me to resign before they knew any of the facts on that Friday morning. Of course if I thought it through I would have known that the Guidelines, it’s the Regulation that, you know, that applies. And of course in a way [ words missing] the Regulation, as you probably know, it took them two weeks to change it then so. It was only on 31st August that they changed it. And the impression that it was a tight six of course is not correct either. It’s groups of six. So it could still be 50 but groups of six.
JUDGE WOULFE: What did I do? I couldn’t think of any breaches by me except I thought, look, like anybody, maybe I didn’t social distance a hundred percent perfectly all through the night, which I think probably applies to us all if we go to any gathering or family event. And that’s all I could think of initially. However, I spoke to one or two people and I decided I would make an apology –
because one or two other people had apologised – for any unintentional breach of any guidelines on my part. Now, I was a bit hesitant about doing it because I wasn’t sure what I was apologising for, but if was there any unintentional breach, for instance, if the number was six and I hadn’t known it, as was being presented
JUDGE WOULFE: Can I just say, Judge, you know I maintain that position. If it still is the case that there was [ words missing] breach on my part I obviously apologise, still apologise and apologise again. But it is fair to say that i t appears now, objectively, that there was no breach by the organisers, let alone by me.
JUDGE DENHAM: But there’s no harm in an apology.
JUDGE WOULFE: No, of course. And it was sincerely meant at the time. I was shocked and appalled, and absolutely appalled that I might have been, even you want to call it an innocent partaker or participant, or present at a breach by somebody else.
On the Golf Society
JUDGE WOULFE: It’s a little bit of digression but I’m appalled at the kind of media treatment of the society event and the it’s presented, in some way it’s like a Ku Klux Klan now, because on that day and both times there was a friendly social atmosphere. And I met a number of people, mainly retire politicians. So the atmosphere of this is more like a retired teachers’ association or retired judges, not active politicians. JUDGE WOULFE: [speaking of a previous Oireachtas Golf Society outing at Powerscourt] So my own impression of the event that day was that it was a very benign event, a benign society that was there to promote convivial relations between so many former politicians and friends and family and it was a purely social and recreational event.
… It’s important to note that golf was one of the things that people were very disappointed about having to stop at all, because people felt golf was one of the safest things. I remember myself thinking my handicap might come down, I’ll be able to play a bit more golf.
On judges mixing with politicians
JUDGE WOULFE: When I was Attorney General and I was being appointed a Bencher and the date was fixed for a date in note and the Taoiseach wasn’t available, he was going to be away and I had raised the possibility of bringing some senior politicians to the dinner in the King’s Inns and the Benchers asked me would I put back the dinner so as to ensure the Taoiseach, and as many ministers as possible, would come. And a flood of ministers came. Now, I can’t see the difference between the Inns hosting a social event and politicians going there and politicians hosting a social event and judges going there. Depending on a list of special circumstances and special facts. If there was a case going on at the time about the Oireachtas and you were sitting in the case or something like that. But in principle I saw it at that level. But I decided, maybe I’d heard something about in codes there’s a think about check with the President of the Court or something. I decided the safest thing, the precaution to take was raise it with the Chief Justice….And I did.
On speaking to Chief Justice Frank Clarke
JUDGE WOULFE: And on that corner I called after him and I said, ‘Frank, listen because I’m new at all this I just want to check with you something.’ And I said, ‘I’ve been invited to the Oireachtas Golf Society outing. I don’t see anything, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.’ I emphasised that it was a non-party political event. And he immediately said to me, ‘I don’t see any problem with that.’ Now, in fairness to him, I didn’t go into details about what socialising or whether there would be dinner or not, but I’d be amazed if he didn’t know that there was likely to be some form of eating.
On his awareness of the new restrictions
JUDGE WOULFE: No, no, I wasn’t unfortunately. Normally I’m a news addict and normally I’m always checking my phone and listening to the news on the radio. My wife would be giving out to me, you know, for doing it too much and I’d have the radio on listening. The only bit – I allowed myself one bit of news headlines at one stage in between the music and the issue I heard about was there a row about restriction at sporting events.