Trump must be thinking: ‘I’m as thick as a plank. What’s going on?’
You’re Jewish but an atheist, right?’
AS: ‘Yes. I am proud to be Jewish. I’m British first, but proud to be Jewish too.’ PM: ‘Yet you’re not religious?’ AS: ‘I don’t practise religion, no.’ PM: ‘You don’t believe in God?’ AS: ‘No, no, no.’ PM: ‘You’ve never prayed?’ AS: ‘No! I mean, I had to as a young boy when I was taught all that stuff. My parents were a bit religious. But not since then.’
PM: ‘What do you think happens to you when you die?’
AS: ‘That’s it, son. I believe in the science. Has anyone ever actually come back? Even Houdini hasn’t come back. I say if there’s some God up there looking after everyone, why did the Holocaust happen, why do so many wars and atrocities happen? Why the hell did He allow it to happen? So there’s no God, everything can be explained. I’m a scientist.’
PM: ‘When you say you’re a scientist, what actual science credentials do you have? You’re not exactly Galileo or Professor Stephen Hawking, are you?’
AS: ‘No. But I’m a doctor of science from Brunel University.’
PM: ‘You mean they gave you one of those hats but nobody’s quite sure why?’
AS: ‘I know a lot about science. Go on, ask me any question.’ PM: ‘OK, what’s a black hole?’
AS: ‘I… erm… [long pause]… I don’t know.’
PM: ‘Exactly. Stephen Hawking knew, which is why he was a proper scientist and you’re not.’
AS: ‘Load of rubbish. He made it all up. Fiction.’
PM: ‘How do you know that if you don’t even know what a black hole is?’ AS: ‘Black holes don’t exist.’ PM: ‘How do you know?’
AS: ‘Because I don’t believe in God.’
PM: ‘What’s God got to do with black holes?’ SILENCE.
PM: ‘So just to clarify, you, as a doctor of science, think Stephen Hawking, the greatest scientist of my lifetime, didn’t know what he was talking about?’
AS: ‘He just came up with that stuff about black holes as a good talking point. He could have said anything. He couldn’t prove it.’ PM: ‘What makes a good leader?’ AS: ‘Firm decision-making and having good people under you who can handle difficult issues. Stuff like the NHS, immigration and education is very complicated, you need experts to sort it out. And you have to deliver on your promises and tell the truth. Take Brexit, and all those lies that we were told about the extra £350million for the NHS and so on. I think [Boris] Johnson and [Michael] Gove should be prosecuted for those lies. If, say, 25% of people who voted to leave did so because of that NHS lie, then that lie changed the result of the referendum and will now result in a nightmare. People should be made accountable.’
PM: ‘Was David Cameron a coward for not staying on to sort out the mess?’
AS: ‘Possibly. But who’d want to be prime minister? You get blamed for absolutely everything. There must come a time when the elation of sitting there in Number 10 is replaced by a feeling of: “Bloody hell, do I really need all this aggravation?”’
PM: ‘Would you ever do it?’ AS: ‘Not in a million years! Your mate Donny Trump must be thinking to himself now… well, first of all: “I’m as thick as a plank so I don’t understand what’s going on…”’ PM: ‘He’s not thick as a plank.’ AS: ‘Well half a plank then.’ PM: ‘No, he’s not. You don’t get to become President of the United States if you’re thick as a plank.’ AS: ‘He is. And he must be thinking now: “Is this all worth it?” Actually, with his ego, he probably isn’t. No, I take that back. He’s probably still loving it all.’ PM: ‘Predictions have never been your strong point. You once predicted, and Trump tweeted you to remind you of this, that the iPod would be “dead, kaput by Christmas”. That was in 2005 and Apple has sold 350 million iPods since then. Do you admit that was one of the world’s worst-ever predictions?’ AS: ‘I suppose you could say there was a… miscalculation.’ PM: ‘You’re making a lot of admissions of being wrong today, you going soft in your old age?’ AS: ‘I just tell the truth! I’m not a tabloid editor who distorts the truth.’ PM: ‘During the US election, I told Trump you had said you could write a bigger cheque than him and he replied you were “so lowlevel on the financial scale” that you didn’t qualify to host The Apprentice…’ AS: Snorts with derision. ‘He’s talking rubbish.’ PM: ‘Trump also tweeted: “Sugar, why don’t you tell the public what you’re really worth – they’d be very disappointed.” How much ARE you worth?’ AS: ‘Just under a billion… dollars… or pounds…’ PM: ‘Which one?’ AS: ‘At the moment, probably dollars.’ PM: ‘So in Britain, you’re not actually a billionaire, you’re a millionaire?’ AS: ‘I’m a multimillionaire. And I might be a billionaire in America and I’m certainly one in Japan.’ PM: ‘Would you like to be a billionaire in Britain?’ AS: ‘Not really, I’m too old now. I don’t need any more money.’ PM: ‘What’s the best thing about being disgustingly rich?’
AS: ‘The only good thing about being very rich is having the satisfaction that you don’t have to rely on any third party to look after yourself or your family. That you can do what you like, when you like, and no-one can stop you.’
PM: ‘What’s the worst thing about being disgustingly rich?’ AS: ‘Nothing.’
PM: ‘What’s the last really extravagant thing you bought?’
AS: ‘A really beautiful diamond for my wife on our 50th wedding anniversary last year. And before you ask, no I won’t say what I spent, but it was a lot.’
PM: ‘God she’s earned that… some of the serial killers I’ve interviewed haven’t been given sentences as long as Ann’s.’ AS: ‘I know, poor girl.’ PM: ‘Are you a good husband?’ AS: ‘Absolutely.’ PM: ‘Yet you once sent Ann a birthday card signed: Best wishes, Alan Sugar.’
AS: ‘That was hilarious. Now I do it purposely.’
PM: ‘Do you have a romantic bone in your body?’
AS: ‘No. I buy her things on her birthday or our anniversary, and take her to dinner. What more do you expect me to do?’
PM: ‘EVER PUT THE BINS OUT?’ AS: ‘YES ACTUALLY, THREE DAYS AGO.’ PM: ‘DID IT FEEL WEIRD?’ AS: ‘NO! WHY SHOULD IT? WHAT’S THE MATTER WITH YOU?’
PM: ‘Did you ever change a nappy for any of your kids?’ AS: ‘No.’ PM: ‘Ever put the bins out?’ AS: ‘Yes. I actually did it three days ago because my housekeeper is on holiday.’ PM: ‘Did it feel weird?’ AS: ‘No! Why should it feel weird? What’s the matter with you?’
PM: ‘When was the last time you bought a pint of milk?’ AS: ‘Today.’ PM: ‘How much was it?’ AS: ‘15p or something?’ PM: ‘What? Where did you buy it, straight from the cow’s udder?’
AS: ‘Tesco.’ [Sugar’s PR lady interjected: ‘55p.’]
PM: ‘You never went to Tesco or bought a pint of milk, you just made that up…’ AS: ‘I sent someone to get it.’ PM: ‘So you lied to me. How much is an average loaf of bread?’ AS: ‘No idea, £2?’ PM: ‘£1. What about the price of a firstclass stamp?’
AS: ‘I know that, I use them all the time. 45p?’
PM: ‘65p. Your man-of-the-people claim is ridiculous, isn’t it? You haven’t got a clue how ordinary people live…’
AS: ‘Knowing the price of a first-class stamp is not top of my priority list.’ PM: ‘Do you ever send letters yourself?’ AS: ‘Yes, but I don’t lick the envelopes myself, I use a bit of wet white cloth. Disease!’
PM: ‘You’re sounding like Howard Hughes.’
AS: ‘I am a bit like him yes, a germaphobic. I clean my hands at least three times a day. You touch stuff all day long, can’t be too careful.’
PM: ‘You had a big health scare recently with your heart?’
AS: ‘I did. I had a lucky escape really. I wasn’t feeling great so booked an appointment to have a scan. That morning, Ann and I did a 25-mile tandem ride, with me doing most of the bloody work, of course. Then we saw the doctor and he said I had a major block in my artery and could have had a heart attack at any moment. I could have literally dropped dead on that bike ride. The funny thing is when we were at the surgery waiting for the result, Ann was calling me a hypochondriac, wasting her time. Then we both nearly passed out when the doctor said what it was and how dangerous it could be. Just think, I could have died and you’d have nobody to take the p*** out of any more.’
PM: ‘I’d have paid tribute to you… shortly after I put a call into the BBC offering to take over as host of The Apprentice.’
AS: ‘Of course you would… in fact, I might put it in my will that you should take over, just so everyone can see you f*** it up.’ PM: ‘Do you like Trump?’ AS: ‘No. I see through him. I meet lots of people like him. But you have to admire what he’s done. He’s the world’s biggest bull ******* , fantastic! He’s unbelievable.’ PM: ‘Have you ever met him?’ AS: ‘No, I spoke to him on the phone once, before he went into politics. Didn’t go very well. He’d had a dig at me in some interview when we were both hosting The Apprentice, so I spoke to him and said I always told the media when I was asked that he [Trump] is very good at what he does for the US market and he should say the same about me. He said: “Do you play golf?” I said: “No.” That was the end of the conversation.
PM: ‘Let me ask you about feminism, sexism and the #MeToo era. What do you make of it?’
AS: ‘I’ve got no comment to make, it’s totally nuts. I’m 71 years old and the world, as you regularly say on Good Morning Britain, has gone nuts. On that, I agree with you.’ PM: ‘Are you a feminist?’ AS: ‘What’s a feminist?’ PM: ‘You tell me.’ AS: ‘I don’t know what it is. Define it. I don’t know if I’m one or not, I’m frightened to say.’ PM: ‘Do you believe in gender equality?’ AS: ‘Yeah, why not? I like women in business, they’re great. Better than men in many cases.’
PM: ‘Then you’re a feminist, congratulations.’
AS: ‘I am? OK good, you learn something every day.’
PM: ‘Why are you frightened of admitting you’re a feminist?’ AS: ‘I’m not a feminist.’ PM: ‘You just said you were.’ AS: ‘I could be a feminist, yeah.’
PM: ‘You could be, or you are? Say the words “I am a feminist”. AS: ‘I am a feminist! There you are.’ PM: ‘What do you make of the #MeToo scandals?’
AS: ‘Unacceptable behaviour, of course, but it goes back to the Hollywood casting couch and people like Weinstein allegedly took it to the next level.’
PM: ‘Have you had to change your company working practice as a result of it?’
AS: ‘As time has gone on, my staff have told me about various changes to rules about working environments and health and safety and so on. But I have always treated people nicely, so if you go back in my history you’ll never find anyone complain about the way I’ve treated them. There’s been a lot of change in my lifetime, we now have maternity leave for women and men, for example.’
PM: ‘You were branded a sexist for complaining that women take jobs and then go off to have babies.’
AS: ‘I said that one of the problems that sits in the minds of employers is that you’re not allowed to ask women about their intention to have children.’ PM: ‘Do you still think that’s wrong?’ AS: ‘I do. I think if a lady wants a job, she should come in and say: “Look, I have two kids, I have a carer at home who looks after them, or whatever, and I want the job.” I would think: “This is a good lady, she’s telling me up-front,” yeah, good, why not?’ PM: ‘What would be bad?’ AS: ‘What would be bad is what’s happened to us many times where ladies come to us knowing they’re pregnant and not telling us, then springing it on us after a few months and then saying they want to go off on maternity leave and get paid. And so they do, and then at the end of the maternity leave they say: “Actually, I’m feeling a little bit depressed so I’m going to have a bit more [time off].” It curls off when you stop paying them. On four or five occasions, we’ve been told by HR people they just didn’t want to come back to work anyway.’ PM: ‘Should the law be changed?’ AS: ‘I think we should be allowed to ask: ‘Are you pregnant?’
PM: ‘Women would say: “It’s got nothing to do with you whether I’m pregnant or not.”’
AS: ‘I want to be able to say, the job is from nine to five and I want you five days a week. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be employing you. I need you here. So I need to understand if you’re ever not going to be here.’
PM: ‘But women have babies, it’s a reality isn’t it? Men don’t have to do that.’
AS: ‘Having said all that, I have to say there have been loads of examples in my company where women have been working for me, gone off to have babies, come back and are still working for me, no problem at all. Loads of them.’ PM: ‘Would you employ Theresa May?’ AS: ‘To do what? She’s clearly not good at selling or marketing or manufacturing. She’s good at politics but I don’t need that.’ PM: ‘Is she good at politics?’ AS: ‘She thinks she is.’ PM: ‘On Brexit, if we end up with no deal, would this country be paralysed?’
AS: ‘Yes. No deal means the crossing of merchandise and goods across the border comes to a complete standstill until new rules, regulations and tariffs are hammered out. That takes a lot of time.’
PM: ‘When you see the astonishing success of tech companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon and Apple, do you feel like you missed out?’
AS: ‘Yes. I feel like Jimmy Greaves when he gets asked what modern footballers get paid. If I was reinventing myself again, I’d be Google or eBay, one of those.’ PM: ‘You were just in the wrong era…’ AS: ‘Wrong place, wrong time.’ PM: ‘You told The Guardian last year that you’re “immune to disappointment”. Is that true?’
AS: ‘In business, yes. In my personal life, I’d be very upset if someone close to me did something really bad.’
PM: ‘What’s been the saddest thing that’s ever happened to you?’
AS: ‘Obviously, bereavement, losing a parent. That’s sad.’
PM: ‘What would your parents have made of your success?’
AS: ‘They lived long enough to see some of it, and they were very proud.’
PM: ‘Who gets your millions when you die? Would you leave it to your three children?’
AS: ‘Yes, the majority of it will be handed down.’
PM: ‘Given you never had money handed to you, why would you do that to your kids?’
AS: ‘Because my kids are great, they have been brought up in the Sugar style, to work. They’re not Ferrari-driving, cocaine-snorting… you know, you’ve met them. [I have, and they’re all delightful people.] They’re hard workers and run the businesses and that’s why they deserve everything they’ve got and will get.’
PM: ‘They’re all remarkably well adjusted, but I put that down to their mother…’
AS: ‘Maybe! But I kept them under control when they were younger.’ PM: ‘What is the Sugar ethos?’ AS: ‘Down-to-earth, level-headed, don’t be flash, treat people nicely, that’s it.’
PM: ‘I have to ask you about The Apprentice. I don’t really want to, but I’ll grit my teeth and get through it. Usual collection of brain-dead, deluded, narcissistic halfwits?’
AS: ‘Usual bunch of wannabes, but some great characters and fantastic tasks. I enjoyed filming it tremendously.’ PM: ‘How long will you keep doing it?’ AS: ‘At least three more years because that’s the contract I signed. After that, I don’t know.’
PM: ‘Thank you for your time, it’s almost been a pleasure.’
AS: ‘For you, maybe. Now p*** off Morgan! I’ve got work to do.’
The Apprentice is at 9pm, Wednesdays on BBC1, followed by ‘You’re Fired’ at 10pm on BBC2.
PM: ‘WHAT’S THE WORST THING ABOUT BEING DISGUSTINGLY RICH?’ AS: ‘NOTHING.’