New Zealand Logger
It takes time to build a successful crew, but Whisker Harvesting seems to have got the formula right from day one.
NZ Logger returns to the Santoft Forest, near Bulls, to catch up with a crew we last visited 12 years ago to mark their achievement in winning the lower North Island Contractor of the Year award for 2019.
TWELVE YEARS AGO, NZ LOGGER visited Whisker No2 when it picked up a coveted contract to work for Ernslaw One in the Santoft Forest, near Bulls, and we remarked on the slickness of the operation.
Nothing much has changed over the course of the past dozen years, except that the crew converted to full mechanisation, reflecting advances in harvesting practices across the industry.
That same crew is still beavering away among the sand-based pines in Santoft and, remarkably, many of the same crew members we met back in 2007 are there today.
It’s that continuity, along with a determination to maintain the highest standards that saw Whisker No2 named 2019 Contractor of the Year in the recent Southern North Island Wood Council Forestry Awards.
It’s very rare for any logging contractor to hold onto a contract for such a long stretch of time and it obviously speaks to the strong relationship forged with their forest manager. In fact, the Whisker crew was nominated for the award by Ernslaw One.
“We use the Whisker model, as we call it, for other crews that we manage,” says Linda Waddell, who is Ernslaw’s Harvest & Woodflow Manager for the southern North Island. “We have two of our other crews in Karioi that basically mimic the Whisker crew and it’s worked well for their configuration, volumes, etc.”
A nice bit of kudos for Nick Whisker, who founded the contracting business more than 20 years ago and now manages four forestry crews, as well as the family farm south of Bulls.
He’s not sure if there is any one reason why the No2 crew has been so successful over the years, putting it down to a combination of contributing factors, including employee stability, a high work ethic, strong team culture and, importantly, the leadership of the crew’s co-owner, Colin Wroe.
“Colin and I started that contract with this crew and he’s very hands-on, still working in there as foreman – plus there are several others who have been around most of that time,” says Nick.
Before the contract came up for tender it was viewed as one of the best to have in the region, coveted by many. But it had been in the same hands for some time and Colin wasn’t so sure about tendering as he wondered whether anyone else was likely to win it.
He’d worked around that area for much of his professional career and even had his own crew back in the 1990’s.
“And then after one forestry crash too many, I got out of that and I managed a few crews for different people,” he says.
“I was running a small woodlot crew for Nick when he first started out and the Ernslaw contract came up. I’ve known of the contract the whole time I was working in the bush and it was always the one you looked at and thought ‘shit, that’s the one to have if it ever comes up’.
“It got tendered out for the first time in 21 years and Nick said to me ‘we’ll put in a tender for it’ and I said ‘you reckon?’ And we ended up getting it. So, for 12 years we’ve been running it as a 50/50 partnership. Works really well.”
The No2 crew is actually two-in-one. There’s the clear-cut harvesting team of five, including Colin, who oversees it on a day-to-day basis as crew boss. Working in a separate area under a foreman and reporting to Colin, is a three-man production thinning team.
On second thoughts, make that three-inone, because a couple of the main harvesting crew split out occasionally and bring in another worker from the wider Whisker group to go road lining when required.
With three operations all combined under one umbrella, there is potential for some things to go awry or get overlooked, but that doesn’t seem to have happened, which was obviously reflected in the forestry award.
It’s fair to say that Colin was really chuffed when the crew took out the Contractor of the Year title, with the whole team travelling over to
Palmerston North for the dinner and ceremony.
Like Nick, he believes that stability in personnel has been a key factor in creating an award-winning crew.
“We are pretty lucky in that most of our guys are very long service – the majority in both crews have been with us over ten years,” Colin says. Each person who hits that mark earns a ten-year celebration.
“We’ve known each other for a long while and I think one of the main reasons we do well is that they are all good guys, good people. They all want to do a good job and take a lot of pride in their work. I set pretty high standards and I think that has rubbed off over the years and they are the same now.”
But that wasn’t the only reason the Whisker No2 guys got their 15 minutes of fame over in Palmerston North.
Colin reckons: “It’s due to a lot of factors and criteria that we met. Like, you’ve got to have an exceptional health & safety record, which we have – we’ve won numerous awards for that.
“You’ve got to be meeting your production targets and still produce good quality. Amongst the Ernslaw crews we are consistently at or near the top in QC audits, recovery audits and so on. So as far as they are concerned, we are always doing a good job for them.”
The fact that crew No2 has been able to continue to produce the goods for more than 12 years underlines the quality of the teamwork and leadership.
“Keeping people motivated is hard, but it’s probably about being a little bit competitive, too,” adds Colin.
“Once you get to a higher standard you can compare it to other crews. They want to maintain it and stay at the top or near to it.
“I’m not going to take all the credit, but I think you’ve got to start at the top and set an example, so they know that’s what is expected. It just becomes normal to have high standards.”
And then there’s that X-factor, which some people like to refer to as ‘crew culture’ or ‘team work’. Whatever you call it, this is a very important ingredient.
Colin agrees, saying: “Everyone looks out for each other; they are good like that. We have auditors from outside and the one thing they always comment on is that everyone works for each other. They are always looking to make the next person in the chain’s job easier. You are always thinking about that next step, rather than just thinking about what you are doing.”
At the time NZ Logger visited Whisker Harvesting, the team spirit was really being tested by the fall-out from the drop in log prices and subsequent reduction in demand for wood.
Until then, the main harvesting team was regularly cutting in excess of 500 tonnes a day and the production thinners were adding more than 100 tonnes of their own. But there is now a cap on numbers in both the clear-cut and thinning operations, which has caused a few headaches. That’s resulted in one of the two
Tigercat 880 processor/harvesters being laid up and one of the crew members having to float around other operations.
Nick says the plan was to actually increase clear-cut production going into the Spring: “But we’ve come back down from 18 or 19, to 12 loads a day and we stopped using one of the 880s and have just gone back to four men again. So we’ll sit on that for the foreseeable future. It is sustainable at that level.”
Maybe. But it still hurts when you have expensive machines side-lined due to matters beyond your control. At least they have got work. Many others haven’t.
Nick has two other crews operating in the region, both in woodlots, where the prospect of continuous harvesting is more fragile – though they were still working at the time of writing, as export log prices were showing signs of improvement.
Funny how things go in cycles. Not long after Whisker No2 started up this contract, the industry went through a similar upheaval following the Global Financial Collapse, before coming right. It shook a lot of people out of forestry, some never to return.
What is very different in 2019, compared to 2008, is that Nick and Colin have much more money tied up in equipment, as most of the logging was being done manually back then.
Chainsaws were bringing down the trees to be de-limbed in a Harvestech and then dragged by a skidder to the skid site and turned into logs by cross-cutters, recalls Nick.
They went fully mechanised in 2010, with the first processor being a Volvo 360 equipped with a Woodsman Pro800. In 2014, Nick and Colin decided to go down the purpose-built route, replacing the Volvo with their first Tigercat 880, also with a Woodsman Pro800. The second Tigercat 880 and Woodsman Pro850 arrived in 2017 when the target was increased, enabling the original 880 to go falling and delimbing.
It’s the older machine that is now mostly parked up under the reduced quota and will probably go to one of the woodlot crews soon.
Crew No2 also has a Volvo 250 for loading and upgraded to the latest Tigercat 632E skidder a year ago. Working in with the crew is a Sumitomo 235, which is mostly used in road building, raking and drainage. Although Nick professes a preference for purposebuilt equipment in the forest, the Sumi was purchased as a standard digger and then guarded and given a high and wide base in the Mobile Sheet Metals (MSM) Feilding workshop located at the family farm, and he’s happy with the results.
The roading side of the crew’s duties are completed by a second-hand MAN gravel spreading truck purchased from Douglas
Logging in Dargaville early last year. In place of the usual tipper on the back, this truck releases the gravel onto the road via a dumping mechanism underneath the bin.
To update us on how crew No2 is fairing in 2019, Nick takes us first to the thinning operation, which is working in a Santoft block around five minutes from the rest of the team.
The thinning work has always been bundled under the same contract by Ernslaw One, says Nick.
The machinery used for this type of work has been specially selected to suit the task and the environment they are working in. It includes a compact Tigercat 610 skidder, a zero-swing Doosan 235, which is unique in New Zealand, Nick explains.
“We high and wided and guarded it in our workshop, to use in loading, fleeting and also shovel-log out in the forest,” he says. “It’s a very handy machine to have in this operation and has created a bit of interest among other contractors.”
The third machine is a Tigercat 822 fitted with a SouthStar 450 head and Nick mentions he will soon be taking delivery of the very first levelling 822 in the country to go onto steeper jobs with one of his other crews.
The Whisker team is fortunate that Ernslaw One has been able to keep the production from this thinning job to around 100 tonnes per day.
Nick says: “They’re mostly doing straight roundwood, although we do cut a little bit of export, which is really just a 3.7 off the end and then straight into longs. MitchPine (sawmill based in Levin) will do about 8% better grade turnout on a long than a short.
“Originally we would have liked to do this job with a forwarder but it works OK with the little skidder. We do three or four loads a day on McCarthy’s trucks. They (Mitchpine) wanted the longs and that’s why we do it that way, whereas in the other thinnings we are using a forwarder because we are cutting shorts and export.”
Stopping at the load-out area we catch up with Mike Jeffree, who is foreman of the thinning team. He is also one of the ‘originals’ starting with Nick and Colin 12 years ago. He was actually in here even earlier, working for the previous contractor for 10 years.
Mike has also done a few woodlots for Nick but prefers working for the big companies, saying: “It’s more stable in this environment and the health and safety is a lot higher in corporate forests. This one in particular.”
Being a three-man operation, everyone is hands-on, with Darren ‘Smally’ Smallman in the Doosan and Chet Swan handling the harvester, leaving Mike to drag trees out of the bush behind the skidder, which he also part-owns. If Chet is away, Mike swaps into the 822.
Although they are kept busy, Mike says his team could produce more than the 100 tonnes they are currently being held to.
“This is a good forest, it’s nice like this all year round, the ground conditions don’t really change,” he says.
“Summer is probably more of a problem than winter with the dryness and fire risk – which can restrict what we’re doing. Last
summer it came very close, we were only days away from being restricted.”
He’s enjoying the 610 skidder, especially as he has a stake in it: “First one I’ve had partshares in. Bought it a year and a bit ago.”
Nick says they’ve hung on to its predecessor, the first 610C in the country, to work in other Whisker jobs.
Mike goes on to explain: “We started in this compartment at the beginning of the year and have done 80 hectares, and we’re doing another 18 hectares, but there are three blocks here that are almost similar size, so at least another year left in this part of the forest.
Nick mentions that Mike “knocked this all down” when the previous rotation was harvested, with Mike adding that the 2004 storms blew much of the forest over and it had to be clear-felled for re-planting.
His association goes back even further, with Mike’s father having worked for Ernslaw: “He did 45 years, first with the Forest Service, then Timberlands before Ernslaw. So I’ve grown up in this forest. Parents still live just down from here and I’m in Bulls.”
This team was also included in the Contractor of the Year Award and Mike reckons it’s because “we are pretty good at what we do and our health and safety record is pretty damn good”.
As Mike returns to the skidder, we get ‘Smally’ to shut down the Doosan for a quick catch-up.
He’s also been here for around 16 years, although his general experience goes back much further, with around 40 years in forestry, including two years in Papua New Guinea, logging in the rainforests, along with stints in Rotorua, Mangatu and Nelson.
“I’m from here originally so I guess that’s why I’ve stayed and it helps having family here,” says ‘Smally’.
“I used to work for Nick’s old man back in the 80s, doing silviculture. And I logged this forest, did the first rotation back in ’88. They’ve logged it since and here we are again. Mike was here, we cut it by hand back then.
“I’m enjoying being back in here except I’m not on a chainsaw now and I’m getting fat without the exercise – I’ll need more than a few jogging sessions. But machines are much easier on the body.
“Don’t really get to use a chainsaw here. I can break the ends off with my grapple so I don’t have to get out and cut them if they are too long.”
‘Smally’ starts at four o’clock every morning and does two hours bunching in the forest and at 5.30am takes a break to load the deck for the first truck arriving around 6.30am and then goes back into the bush.
“Between trucks I bunch, fleet, come out and load up, then clean my skids and I do that 12 hours a day, otherwise you’ll never do your quota. It’s busy, so I’m not bored, I’m always doing something,” he says.
And he’s enjoying his new Doosan, saying: “She’s nice and fast for loading and shovelling. Although it’s got smaller final drives on it, so not as quick as the bigger machines when I have to walk in to do bunching, but otherwise it’s a great little machine. It’s really only meant to be loading and fleeting. And it’s very quick for that.”
Nick is very proud of the choice of machine, along with the work his engineers have done on the Doosan.
“It’s light years ahead of anything else we’ve put in there,” he says.
“Lift is incredible. It will throw a 5-axle trailer off. I think it’s the only one working in the bush. Since we put it in, a couple of other contractors have rung me up about it. The reason we went with it was because of the 6-cylinder engine, more grunt and just the lift capability.
“It has a standard arm and boom, so we can get into the trees to bunch with it as well, which is a big advantage.
“With 3 or 4 loads a day, you know that every time a truck leaves, it’s an hour and 45 minutes before he gets back, so you can either go in or stay out and fleet. It works quite well because you are not having to go to-and-fro with four trucks coming and then nothing and that’s the advantage of working in the corporates – McCarthys giving you a nice, constant flow.
“They just sit on a hundy. It doesn’t sound like much but it works. It’s a very specialised game. What Mitchpine takes is quite unique, because they cut out a pile if they need to, to take something out of the log. They cut short posts, halves and all sorts – very unique. At the end of the day, you can sit back and look at what you’ve done and be quite satisfied with the result, how you’ve improved the stand and provided some good product to a mill that is crying out for it.”
The person responsible for cutting those trees in the Tigercat 822C is Chet Swan, who joined Nick’s organisation eight years ago. He’s operated a wide array of machinery over time, from driving trucks to agricultural tractors, both here and in Australia.
“I was driving trucks in Australia, with my wife still here and she saw an advert for a job with Whisker and said ‘you’d better come home’. I started as a loader driver.”
Chet then spent two years in a big skidder, swapping to a harvester four years ago in clear fell.
So what does he make of thinnings? “It’s different, I came out of a Tigercat 855 with a Woodsman 700 down to this. Not sure which one I prefer, they’ve both got plus and minus points. You lose a bit of paint in this job even with a short tail swing.”
Unlike some thinning operations, Whisker doesn’t remove every third row, preferring to take out the smallest and ugliest trees. Nick says it’s because they don’t want to leave heavy tracks. The aim in here is to take stocking numbers down to 350 from 600.
For this sort of work, they both agree that the compact 822 is a “very good machine”.
Leaving the thinnings and on the way to see the harvesting team, we pass near to the Whisker farm, where Nick mentions he was born and has now moved his family back there. As well as rearing livestock and growing crops, the farm also sparked the forestry career for Nick, with the block behind it being planted in trees by his father. Those trees have since been logged and their replacements are already 12 years old.
Approaching the harvesting site, Nick spots a familiar truck driving out and pulls it over. It’s the 6-wheel-drive MAN ‘bottom dumper’ used for delivering gravel to the forestry roads from
a nearby quarry. In the driver’s seat is Scott McPhee, who is a more recent arrival, starting with Whisker two years ago. Prior to that he was with Foxpine, driving logging trucks.
Scott is not a full-time member of this crew, only working in with them on roading jobs. In addition to driving this truck he also operates farm machines for Nick. Call him a general hand.
This truck arrived from Dargaville at the start of 2018 and Scott says: “I’ve driven a lot of trucks but nothing quite like this, very enjoyable to drive. Very different to tippers. Lot better, does a better job.
“You get a better spread of metal and you can stop/start them easier. If you are doing potholes etc you can just cruise over them and drop it straight on.”
He’s been spreading on roads in here for the past couple of weeks and will drive out to other forests when needed. The truck is also used on the farm for roading.
Turning our attention to the harvesting team, Nick says the action is more subdued today, compared to a few months earlier. Co-owner, Colin, has already departed for the day, having completed his early shift, but I manage to talk to him on the phone a few days later.
I ask Nick whether the forest itself has changed much since this crew first started work in here and he says: “We still cut trees at year 28, which gives them a good chance to grow. But it’s not all that consistent in places.
“Looking down a forest you can see where someone has got it wrong in the past, where it’s too heavy and it’s basically growing a K grade forest instead of an A grade forest. They come out at the same tonnes per hectare but the K grade is worth $25 less than an A grade.
“Santoft, over time, has probably come back in piece size from 2.5 tonnes to probably now about 1.6. It used to be done over two thinnings – a thin to waste then a production thin at age 14 and then a final production thin at 19, but they don’t do the 19 anymore. They use the second thinning to push up that tree height to get the volume and the better log grades.
“It’s hard to explain it to some people who don’t understand because there are so few forests in New Zealand where you have the opportunity to do it. You’ve only got a few sandbased forests on the west coast of the North Island where you can do that. Maybe less than 50,000 hectares. Not a big area.”
Nick says their close relationship with Earnslaw One sees Colin talking to Harvesting Manager, Linda, on a daily basis. Likewise, Mike is in contact regularly to discuss progress and any changes for the thinning side. But, unlike the wood produced in thinnings, there aren’t many mills left in the region to take saw logs, so most of it goes to export.
A lot is sent by rail from Palmerston North to Wellington, says Nick, although they do have the option of shipping across to Napier or back to New Plymouth by train. In addition to Mitchpine, some goes to the Ernslaw mills at Tangiwai. The woodlot crews mostly provide export logs, with the prunes going up to Tenon in Taupo. A little bit goes to Kiwi Lumber in Dannevirke and every now and then some goes up to Pan Pac in Napier.
The challenge of meeting production targets, whether they are set high or on reduced quotas, can cause some head scratching, says Nick.
They rely on electronic information from their harvesting and processing equipment to determine what has been cut at the end of each day, so everyone knows what is in stock.
“It doesn’t matter whether you are cutting 3-tonne trees at the back of Kaitoke prison or 1.2 down by the coast, our target is still the same,” says Nick. “So you have to work smarter to get the same result. For instance, if you cut a whole load of shorts for export that will slow you down. If you did a whole load of 6.1 you load quicker and the turnaround would be quicker. It’s just the nature of the block and terrain – we’re pretty lucky with this crew that we are on sand, which means the ground conditions don’t hold us up.”
With the time ticking on, there’s just a couple of the team left out here to carry the work into the afternoon; Kit Bradley, who has taken over the Tigercat 880 from Colin and James ‘Jimmy’ Dear, running the Sumitomo bucket machine.
Kit is the youngest member of the team, arriving directly from school in 2002, so that makes him one of Nick’s longest-serving employees: “I remember signing out of school and the very next day came out to do pruning around Nick’s property, plus a bit of thinning to waste and then spent a few days out with the logging crew.
“Leon, my brother-in-law who worked for Nick at the time, he got me in. He asked me what I wanted to do after I left school and I didn’t know so he said come into forestry until you do. And I’ve just stayed here.”
He was brought in originally to help with manual tree falling: “A lot of edge tree were coming up and they said, get Kit in, he knows how to do it. I kept chipping away at the edge trees and then they said, ‘oh well, you’ve been here long enough why not try a machine’.”
He’s tried the skidder and tracked loader, but for the past three years Kit has been falling and trimming trees with the older 880, which he enjoys, but admits to liking the newer one even better.
“I love the work and the old 880 is a nice machine, but that (later) one is even better,” he says. “It’s brand new and everything wrong on this one they’ve made better with that one. The new Tigercat engine is more powerful, the hydraulic pumps and rams are bigger, it’s just so good, ask it to do something and it does it with ease.
“I’m using this old one today because we’ve started creating another skid and it’s better for falling. Normally I’ll swap with Colin after he’s finished processing for the day.”
When Colin is processing in the 880, Kit will do some QC first and then spend four or five hours falling in the Tigercat.
“That gives us enough for the next day, plus a little bit more, so even if there is a breakdown or something, there is always enough wood flow to carry on – around 300 trees a day to keep us ticking along,” he says.
Kit says he feels good to be part of a Contractor of the Year winning team, adding: “Bit of a surprise really. We didn’t have too many expectations and just went along for the night for the free beer!
“But then again, we get externally audited quite a bit and they comment on how well our crew is structured, how well we all get along, our production standards – they all seem to have something good to say about our crew.”
As a machine operator, Kit acknowledges the fact he doesn’t get as much exercise on the ground as he used to, but relishes the early QC work, saying: “I still love being on the chainsaw and being outside, that’s my nature, I play rugby or cricket every weekend and that keeps me fit, which makes up for sitting down every work day.”
A few hundred metres away, Sumi operator, ‘Jimmy’, is dragging out stumps from the ground to create the new skid site.
He’s the newest member of crew No2, arriving two years earlier from a local earthworks contractor. He didn’t know anything about forestry before he started and reckoned it would be an interesting challenge: “And it’s turned out to be a good challenge. Work with a bunch of great guys and really good bosses. We all gel well together and Ernslaw is a good company to work for.”
‘Jimmy’ has just completed 3km of roading on the way in and is upending the stumps so they can be shifted to enable the ground to be
levelled. He’s got a grubber with a thumb on the end and is churning through the stumps at a fast rate, reckoning it will take a few hours tomorrow to complete raking the site and it’ll be done. Then back to roading.
He is pleased to be working with good gear and Nick points out that the high and wide conversion and guarding are another product of the MSM workshop.
Is there any task that ‘Jimmy’ likes more than others? He says: “I don’t mind any kind of work, it’s all good, because of the variety. Nice working out here, it’s pretty flat, so not difficult.
“Another benefit is that we’ve got two years work in here, so I’m coming into the same place for a while – handy, because I live close by, in Palmerston North.”
Another of the long-serving crew members is skidder driver Ross Bertram, who has been with Nick for 14 years and has worked with Colin for much longer, stretching back some 25 years.
A native of the Manawatu, forestry is in his blood, having followed his father, who was a forest supervisor, into the industry 35 years ago.
Ross describes this outfit as “a bloody good crew – everyone is experienced so they all know their job and the crew just ticks away”.
He’s usually at the controls of the Tigercat 632 by 4am and finishes “when I have enough wood set up for the next day”. With daily loads now back to 11, it means he now finishes early in the afternoon, though it depends on how far he is dragging stems.
Ross says the sand-based forest might look easy to work in, but it can be deceptive because there are swampy areas and environmental sites that he’s not allowed to drive on. Also, sand can be a difficult surface to pull heavy loads on.
“You don’t generate traction on sand like you do on clay country where you can use your horsepower – once you disturb the sand you create a mess for yourself and you can’t maximise your drags,” he says.
“It’s not about pulling the biggest drag, it’s more about your cycle time because you don’t really want to disturb the sand tracks.”
Loader driver, Paul Green is another early starter, arriving in the forest around the same time as the first trucks.
Paul began with Nick 11 years ago in one of his other crews and joined this one a couple of years later. He’s been in forestry since 1994, but did take two years off to drive grain harvesters in Canada and Australia.
These days he spends all his time in the cab of the Volvo 250 loader, in which he owns half shares. That arrangement dates back to 2014, with an earlier machine.
“Then we got another and had two going at one stage, but we’ve let the older one go – this one has done 4,200 hours,” says Paul. “Nice machine, although I liked the factory cab in the older one – was more comfortable than the purpose-built, but this is what we need for safety these days.”
Paul is relaxed about the reduced quota, but you do get the impression that he misses the buzz of loading more trucks in a day. It can still be up and down.
“On the biggest day I did around 25 loads and still managed to keep up – now we do around 11 or 12,” he says.
“I enjoy it here because we can do our own hours to suit, so long as the work gets done. Finishing early in the afternoon means I can pick up the kids from school. And we all get on really well. It’s a great work environment.”
They’re a tight bunch alright. Nick and Colin even regard Harvesting Manager, Linda Waddell, as a member of their crew and made her feel welcome from the time she moved to Bulls with Ernslaw ten years ago.
She says: “I was pretty green when I came down, not knowing much about harvesting and that side of it. I was fortunate enough to work with this group, learning and understanding what they do.
“One of the advantages of working with Whisker is that when I came here I was young and female and they never treated me any different. I was treated like one of the crew and I didn’t feel disadvantaged because of my situation. They were there to help me learn and work with me and ten years later they feel like family.
“They not only needed recognition for that, but also for the fact they are a very good crew, good health & safety, good operations, they are good guys and environmentally they do very well, so from a company’s perspective they are the type of crew any company would want.”
It’s great to see that it’s not only the Whisker No2 crew who are so happy in their work after 12 years here in Santoft Forest, but also the forest manager.
Colin agrees, saying: “We just need to make sure we keep them happy so we keep the contract. That’s an important part of
having high standards, because it will help you keep the contract.”
Nick concurs: “We try to make it so that nothing is a problem.
“At the end of the day, the contract is ours to lose, that’s the way I look at it. As long as you treat it that way it works for both parties.”