•‘Soleye: DiScipline, AuSterity unDerwAy’ •
won’t be able to make your money back and that is the beginning of corruption. So the first thing is; Nigeria should know that we cannot afford to pay this fabulous allowance to our National Assembly people, they have to do that. If they don’t do that I can assure you, they’ll fail.
The Buhari you know and worked with was a military officer where fiat is used, express order is given which is going to be very different from the Buhari that is coming in.
(Cuts in) Because he’s now a politician, the political party that puts him there will expect some returns, but let me tell you this, Nigeria is very, very rich even now with the oil price down, there is enough for all of us. Buhari will have to appeal with the political side of him, we’ll meet you half way but in any case, it should not be the ambition to say that I want go there to be a millionaire in one year, we didn’t vote them in for that, we voted them to improve Nigeria, to get employment for the unemployed, to improve our economy. That is what they have promised to do, they should not go to the extent of thinking their priority is to get there and recoup the 20million spent on campaign, but they’ll have the benefits, the comfort. But what I’m telling you is the basis of corruption we are all shouting about and for me, that is essential. Cut the cost of running government by at least 50percent and that will have to begin with our leaders. They will be there to pass the law to effect it and what you may have noticed in this current regime is there is only one political party in the National Assembly, when it comes to remuneration, have they ever disagreed on their remuneration? I have never seen them disagreeing on their salary. If I want to talk about the way corruption has been, I’ll say it has become an institution. Let us think of ordinary market women, student that are looking for job, what we need is a decent life so that if you cannot eat good food three times a day, at least two should be for everybody. But the gap, the income gap in Nigeria today is absolutely unbelievable. And why is it not easy for state government to pay N18,000 minimum wage? You just ask yourself that question, put it against the amount we use to run government and what our leaders are getting. So that’s my advice. Discipline and austerity is coming and I can tell you, if they straighten the economy within two years, all of us will be laughing.
The terrain is going to be different for Muhammadu Buhari, he did not just become President without the backing and funding from politicians, do you think Buhari will survive the pressure from these politicians?
I think he will, I’m not sure whether you looked at the TV programme where people were criticising him, you know the vicious campaign against him before he won, and you’ll remember his answer . He said, “if you’re going to criticise me or nail me for what I did as a military head of state, no problem. Ask those people who do not like me to join the opposition and vote against me.” He said that. That is Buhari. You know he could have justified and say no, it wasn’t like that. He said if you see all I’ve done in bad light, go and join the opposition, the PDP, and vote against me. That is Buhari, there is a limit of decadence that Buhari will tolerate, I know that.
You think he has the will to fight these politicians who made him president?
He’ll tell them he’s not fighting them, he’s letting them see that if you want Nigeria to be a great nation, which is what is in the manifesto, this is the way out, the way Nigeria is, anything can happen. Buhari I’m telling you looks straight forward, but I know he has the guts to stand this people because of their manifesto, he wants a better Nigeria. I’m sure he’ll succeed.
You served as a minister of finance, a very key position during the military, how do you feel or what do you have to say when people blame the military and alleging a lot of financial recklessness in their era and hinging our present situation to that?
Financial recklessness? Not in Buhari’s time, infact in the cabinet, they were not calling me minister of finance, they referred to me as minister of debt management because our debt was so high that what we were trying to do was to pay those debts - domestic debt, international debt. So if you say minister of finance, which finance have you got? And it was a very disciplined regime that is why we didn’t last two years. We were kicked out after 20 months because Nigerians like ‘owambe’ kind of life, we didn’t go for SAP (Structural Adjustment Programme), we handled IMF, World Bank. But you see the problem that Buhari had at that time, only as far as I’m concerned, was when he jailed two journalists. Thats all. That’s Buhari’s, but Nigerians were persuaded, ‘you know this is too harsh.’ They connived with foreign power.
When you say ‘they’, who are you referring to?
Nigerian populace. You see, when you talk about leaders, you’ll talk about followers, we like cheap things, otherwise how would you explain the fact that Babangida spent eight years and didn’t want to leave? He himself said he’s an evil-genius , he understands Nigeria, by the time you come here, give brown envelope, if you cannot beat them, join them. That is why the emphasis I want you to put; discipline and austerity is coming. All this simple way of clapping, we too must chop, you chop, I chop and the cake is getting smaller and smaller and now we’re having expectation that cannot be met in two or three years from Buhari. So our own military government, the one I know was even accused of very bad behaviour. You remember at that time when they see you with foreign exchange you cannot explain, you go behind bar to explain how you got it, and it involved Fela Anikulapo kuti
Will you agree that the regime was a Draconian regime?
It’s hard to be Draconian. Who started War Against Indiscipline? Was it not Buhari\Idiagbon? Before you do anything in your personal life, in your community, in your village, you have to be disciplined. And would you say it’s too draconian, we don’t want it? There is no magic in running government or in being a minister of finance. If you have a Volkswagen, Nigeria won’t think you have arrived, you must have SUV, but go to their homes, what do they eat? For the good of our children, for the good of future of Nigeria, because we don’t know how to spend money wisely, so we need that discipline. That era was draconian because it was based on discipline, War Against Indiscipline started with little thing, when you want to buy something, you queue but its more than that, there are a lot of indiscipline in the bank, Nigeria Ports Authority, in schools. When you have students slap their lecturers, let’s not get into it now. Let the political party that has won, APC, sit down with Buhari and others, this is not the time for booty sharing. And you’ll discover that within two years, things would reshapen its head. Nigeria is rich, students will be able to eat one meal and then we’ll be able to provide them with books and so on. But if there is no discipline what we’ll be hearing even from principal of school is if you can’t beat them, join them.
That sector is still the most relevant in the economy, don’t mind the price of crude that has fallen to $55\$57, even if it drops to $40 we can make it. Petroleum is not just an economic product like most manufacturing sector. It’s also a political one; both domestically and internationally. Petroleum, is not just an economic industry, subjected to only supply and demand, it’s also political. And I give you examples, when Obasanjo wanted to deal with Ghana, remember what he did? He just cut the supply. So you can see that’s not the law of free-enterprise economy, petroleum anywhere in the world is one economic commodity and also political commodity. This is what Nigeria relies on heavily for our resources; I’m not talking about domestic resources. Foreign exchange is about 90 something percent from oil. Now let me tell you my simple experience, because it’s a political commodity and economic commodity, and luckily Buhari was one-time minister of petroleum, he knows what is happening, that I know with my relationship with him. My advice is: he should keep an eye on petroleum, You know he was also chairman of PTF(Petroleum Trust Fund) he has an idea, he himself should be the minister of petroleum for at least one or two years to see what’s happening. After that he has to have a minister, it should be a minister of state. You know the politician side, they’ll abuse us that we’re putting everything to ourselves, that we need a minister. If he has to succumb to the fact that he needs a minister of petroleum, he should be a minister of state at least at the beginning, for the next year or two. You might say how is that possible but how is it not possible? That was what Obasanjo did.
The youths have blamed elders like you, particularly people of your age group that have had the opportunity of managing this country, that you have been selfish about giving them the opportunity to administer, they keep saying 30 years ago/40 years ago we were told that youths are the future leaders
How then do we deal with this kind of offenders?
Don’t you experience heat?
of tomorrow, today this same leaders are the ones leading.
Even my son, he has some friends, they always argue with me and say my generation has disappointed them, you have not done well. Then I say ok, if we have done something that is not good, you go and correct it. Now I’ll tell you how they can correct it. That time was the time they did a jamboree, they submitted a report, Confab. My son and his friends came and said, this is what we are saying, look at the people at the confab, 87 year old man was there, the Akinjides of this world, the elderly, they didn’t see the 45-50 year old. This is what we are saying, how can the young ones grow? They are right in a way, repetition of the same people, now have we seen anyone surrendering power willingly and laughing? The young ones of today must unite, they’ll get this power if they too don’t succumb to this booty mentality, you know they don’t have money. What you are saying is right for the future. The young ones too must think, you all want to go to National Assembly so that after three years there, they‘ll have hotels. You think that is what they do? Petrol station and so on? So the young one too must act. I told my son and his friends and I said listen. If you can’t live in the world as you find it, you need the resources in our society to amend and overthrow the present system and I told them what I heard from a great man. Bishop Howness, an Anglican bishop, he came to talk to us students. I’m talking about 1960s. He came to talk to us about our studies, and you know students, they don’t want to hear anything like that. “You have failed in your duty, this and that, you didn’t give allowance.’ You know, when that man finished his sermon, I still remember what he said. I pray if you student do well in your studies, go back to Nigeria and come and add your wisdom to our ignorance. That is what I’ll tell this generation. It is bad if we don’t have a replacement generation that can run this nation efficiently. The bad thing about Nigeria is that we are rich.
Will you say that oil is a curse or we didn’t manage the wealth well?
We are managing it badly, we can’t call it managing. I say “Amosua.”. And that is why Europeans, American say we want loan, but they can mention ten, twenty people that have the kind of money you need to go and borrow. Let’s look at the amount of money Abacha siphoned away. I heard New Zealand returned $330 million we’re clapping ,what about the money that cannot be recovered? And even this small election, some of them are running away because they think something will happen and a friend told me when I said what are they doing about buying houses in Dubai, you know what he told me? Nigerians don’t buy houses any longer, they buy street in Dubai, you might think it’s a joke. We can make it if we sacrifice in the mean time and if we allow Buhari’s government to restructure. There is enough for everyone. It’s not just about cutting, demand management and supply we must encourage small scale industries. It is not just the negative thing, that is where we have to start even the small one we have, let us know how to manage it. The one I never want to speak about is cut the unnecessary spending. Even the political one, I don’t believe any government should send anybody to Jerusalem or Hajj with government money, don’t take public money.
Those who embezzle public money, will you support the call for capital punishment, death penalty, for this set of people?
No, you don’t need capital punishment. How are you sure they are getting the right person. The court always make mistake, ask the British after 69years, they discovered the people they had hung didn’t commit the offence. Life is so sacred that somebody stole money and then you go and kill that person? I know some people say let’s have the Rawlings type of something. Have it. But in a society where people are undisciplined, he will be forgotten.
There are laws in our country, only that people do not know. Some judges and tribunals do get bribes.
Why did you not become a Politician like some of your friends? Why is someone with experience like you not in politics?
It’s like people asking you why are you not a business man? Why are you doing this stupid job of radio? Some of us are not cut for certain business occupation. I can tell you it has never occurred to me to be a politician. It has never occurred to me. If I want to invent reason, I will be deceiving you but for those of us in academics what we require is our knowledge to be used, and let me tell you the small thing we get, except now that ASUU is like this, this is enough for us. If you go out in your Peugeot, you’re satisfied, you’re fulfilled.
You don’t think about that, and don’t forget we have our own reward. We go to ministry, you see your student permanent sec, you get whatever you want. So not everybody will go into politics. It is now because politics is so lucrative, but most of us if we want to invent reason, it didn’t cross our mind. Some say politics is a dirty game but someone has to play it.