So Many Questions

George Bizos defended Nelson Mandela in the Rivonia treason trial and has been one of his closest confidants. Chris Barron asked him ..

Nelson Mandela has always insisted he is no saint . . .

Nor a prophet, nor a messiah.

Why do we insist on revering him as one?

Because he was prepared to die for freedom and democracy. Because he saved South Africa from a bloody revolution in which thousands of people would have been killed. This is why, I think, he is such a beloved figure. No other person was as brave, as principled, as dedicated to the cause that he had espoused from when he was a young student.

What helped to save him from the death sentence?

I think what Alan Paton said in his evidence in chief made a deep impression. That he knew them as honourable men who did not do anything for personal gain, but for the benefit of all South Africans. And that we whites would one day want to negotiate with the legitimate leaders of the majority. Execute them and we will have no one to negotiate with.

Zimbabwe President Robert Mugabe says he was too nice by far, particularly to whites?

I don’t know that Mugabe can be taken seriously in wanting to teach us how to behave. There are people in South Africa who actually repeat what Mugabe has said. They are wrong.

Might one say that seldom before has the destiny of a nation depended on one person to quite the same extent?

Mandela would contradict you. When he was released, and particularly after his appointment as president, he resented the fact that he was singled out as the hero of the fundamental change that had taken place in the country. He resented the fact that many people said that South Africa was a one-man show and that there would be chaos if he gave up power, or when he died.

But for a critical period he was the only man holding the country together?

I never heard him say “I”. It was always “we”. He didn’t do it alone. He consulted.

At the same time he could be quite autocratic, couldn’t he?

At times, when people went completely out of line, he would, after consultation with his colleagues, put them down. He always listened to people. If he made a decision on his own, it was always after seeking clarity on what the duty of a democratic president was. He lost the first case in the Constitutional Court. The judgment against him was given at 10.15. Without consulting anybody he went to the SABC and said: “I’m sorry that I was ill- advised in passing that proclamation. I respect the decision of the court.” The reason he rushed to the SABC was that he didn’t want any of the others to criticise the court’s judgment. He said: “I accept the judgment and I ask all the people of South Africa to accept it.” He was prepared to be single-minded about things that he thought were clearly right.

Not about Aids? No, no. Aids was an example where he did speak out. The only time he publicly criticised former president Thabo Mbeki was because he thought his attitude to the Aids problem was wrong. Only after he himself had ceased being president?

As a matter of principle, he did not contradict his successors. But on the issue of Aids he did.

Did he have any faults at all, then?

In my view, he was too generous in forgiving the people who had done him wrong.

So Mugabe was right? He was too nice?

I don’t think that Mugabe regarded him as a wise man, and it was wisdom that motivated Mandela. Mugabe’s motive for saying he was too nice is because of the mess his country finished in by choosing not to follow Mandela’s example.

How could Mandela come out of 27 years in prison and feel no bitterness? Was there no anger bottled up inside him?

He only lost his temper twice, to my knowledge — once at Codesa with former president FW de Klerk and a second time with De Klerk when they received the Nobel peace prize in Oslo. He expected De Klerk to apologise for apartheid in his acceptance speech. Instead, De Klerk said both sides made mistakes. In his speech at the prime minister’s dinner that night, Mandela expressed his anger at the top of his voice. “You made a mistake? Putting me into prison for 27 years — was that a mistake? Illtreating other political prisoners on the island . . . was that a mistake? Was that a mistake?” But he controlled his anger in the main.

In the last conversations you had, did he express any regrets?

Many in the ANC and opposition parties say that they are heirs to his legacy. They profess this, but don’t apply it. It must have been a matter of regret to him. I do hope that with the grief which is going to be expressed his legacy will be taken more seriously, and that the people who pretend to be following it will really try harder rather than just loosely talking about it.