So Many Questions

Former trade union leader and cabinet minister Jay Naidoo has warned that South Africa is in danger of falling into an abyss. Chris Barron asked him . . .

Do you support Ronnie Kasrils’s don’t-vote-ANC call? He did talk to me about it and I felt I was not ready to be part of that campaign.

Why not? Because, you know, we each respond differently. We each have our different levels at which we want to cross that line. But I understand the frustration and the anger that people like Ronnie have with the ANC. His call resonated with me. It is something that I feel very strongly about, the rising tide of corruption in this country.

But not strongly enough to vote against the ANC? I think that is a choice I will make when I am in the ballot box. But I want to clarify one thing. I have great respect for Ronnie and Nozizwe [Madlala-Routledge]. I think they are extraordinary people who have given their lives to the ANC, and I dismiss with absolute contempt anyone who describes them as traitors or counterrevolutionaries.

You dismiss the leadership of the ANC with contempt? No, I am dismissing those that label them, whoever they are. It takes balls to do what they have done.

Don’t you have balls? It’s not a matter of whether I have balls or not. This is an individual choice. As an individual I don’t feel I am ready to make a decision to campaign in that way.

You say South Africa is ”on the ropes”. But you don’t feel it needs a change of government? No, I didn’t say that. I say I am not ready to call on other people to not vote ANC.

Do you feel we need a change of government?

I feel we need political competition.

Do we need a change of government? All political parties in the world are hostage to money interests and that is why I have chosen to stay out of party politics of any sort. I am deeply committed to what I have always believed in, which is that if citizens are organised, if they are conscious of their constitutional rights and prepared to stand up and fight for them, that will bring into place accountable government.

Shouldn’t this be done at the polls? No, that’s not the only way. That is one option. Even in the best-case scenario where we have one of the most progressive constitutions in the world, where we had the iconic leadership of Nelson Mandela, we still end up in a mess because we demobilised people, we made them bystanders and then promised as government to deliver everything and found that we do not have the capacity.

What do we do now? Go back to the core values that won us our freedom.

Is the ANC going to do that? I don’t believe that any party is capable of doing that. I believe that a civil society that is robust and well organised, and we’re seeing the emergence of this, is what will hold the seat of politicians to the fire.

Don’t you need political power to fix things like education and health? We need the political power of citizens that will hold politicians to account.

If you don’t vote to change the government responsible for the mess, then won’t you just have more of the same? No, you’re not going to get me to say that I am going to vote against the ANC, I am not going to say that to you. I cannot tell you now who I will vote for, that is my choice. But even if the government changes, I am not convinced that the situation in this country will change unless people are properly organised and understand their rights and are prepared to hold their governments to account.

How?

Exactly how we did it in the past. Build a robust civil society. And that’s going to take time.

Do we have the luxury of time? We don’t have an alternative. If you’re going to invest all your time in hoping that some politician is going to come and lead us to the nirvana of delivery that we anticipated in 1994, then we are making another mistake.

Isn’t the point of democracy that if we make a mistake we can vote for a new government? No, I think this is where we have a difference of opinion. I am of the view that exercising a vote at the ballot box is not sufficient to guarantee the delivery we promised our people in 1994.

Has the tripartite alliance reached its sell-by date? The time has come for a very serious debate about its relevance.

Do you support the idea of a workers’ party? I think what South Africa needs is a genuinely left political party that represents the interests of people who feel there should be fundamental economic changes.

Isn’t this a role the South African Communist Party should play? The general consensus is that there is a need for an independent socialist party. Certainly the SACP does not meet that need.

Is it irrelevant? I can’t say. I’ve never been part of it and I don’t know what they do.