So Many Questions

The initiation season has started, resulting in predictable death and mutilation. Chris Barron asked Health Minister Aaron Motsoaledi . . .

Is the government failing these young people?

From where I am sitting, I don’t think so. We did not just sit on our laurels after realising what happened last year. Since those incidents, we have put up mechanisms and structures. We have been working with the Congress of Traditional Leaders of South Africa (Contralesa) because the Department of Health is not responsible for these rituals. These are traditional rituals.

Surely, insofar as health regulations are being flouted, you are responsible?

We’re involved in all issues where health is affected. That is why, in consultation with Contralesa, we have given R20-million for each province where these rituals are practised.

What must they do with that and what have they been doing?

We don’t just hand it over. We keep it for them and they claim it for activities.

Like what?

Most of the damage is happening because doctors are not involved. We said that with this money they must hire doctors — choose doctors who are in the private sector but who are practitioners of this culture. Because the traditional leaders say no, this is our culture, we don’t want interference from those who aren’t part of it.

Do you buy that?

Buy what?

Should their cultural practices trump our human rights culture?

We are finding a way in which their culture doesn’t trample on human rights. But 99% of these practices are being carried out in illegal traditional schools, which then are not part of our agreement with the traditional leaders.

What agreement?

That these doctors must examine each and every initiate before going to the bush, because some might be HIV-positive or have other diseases that could kill them. So doctors must decide who can go to the bush and who cannot.

And then they do the circumcisions?

Precisely. The doctors themselves and nobody else.

Have the traditional leaders agreed?

They agreed as Contralesa, but they said some traditional leaders were still resistant. It was also agreed that postoperative care must also be done by a qualified doctor.

But still in primitive conditions in the bush?

They must use the R20-million for sterile bandages and antiseptics to make it less primitive.

Can’t the government ban bush

circumcisions and force them to be done in clinics? You’re saying we must ban traditional initiation, not bush circumcision. Be honest about that. You’re saying we must tell them they can no longer practise their tradition, they must come to clinics, that this whole thing must be banned. Stop beating about the bush, say it directly and I’ll respond.

Okay. Do you think these rituals should be banned?

I don’t necessarily think so, because then we must ban many other cultures and traditions, which are protected by the constitution.

Should there be a review of those that trample on the right to life and dignity?

I have no problem with that. I happen to know that in KwaZuluNatal King Shaka banned traditional circumcision 200 years ago. King Goodwill Zwelithini brought it back, but he made a ruling that only a doctor can perform it. They are not doing it in the clinics but in other areas, and nobody died. So it is not necessary that it has to be done in a clinic for people to live.

So why are they dying in the Eastern Cape?

Because in the Eastern Cape you, as an individual, are allowed to start your own school. That opens room for illegal ones and the deaths have taken place in the illegal ones. The painful thing is that some of them are protected by parents.

How can parents want their children to be mutilated?

You’d better go and ask them. Parents themselves stop our monitors when they go there to close a traditional school. They even co-operate with these schools.

Can’t the government intervene to protect these children?

We have stepped in. We even created rescue centres to go and rescue these children. We are searching all over the bushes to rescue children. We have rescued 200 children.

Before or after the operations?

At various stages. It depends when we are tipped off. We were tipped off that there were 11 children in an illegal school. When we sent the monitors to rescue them, only four were found and rescued. The others disappeared and we heard they were picked up by parents who hid them all over the bushes. We don’t know where they are — whether they will appear when they are dead or mutilated. But often when we rescue children, they are quite [seriously ill].

How does that make you feel?

Very bad. You are rescuing children who are literally taken to slaughter by their own parents. You want to help a child and the parents say no, this is my child. That is what we are experiencing.