So Many Questions

The City of Tshwane sent the feared Red Ants in against homeless people in Hammanskraal this week. Chris Barron spoke to Gauteng human settlements MEC Paul Mashatile, who stopped the evictions . . .

Do you have a coherent policy for dealing with homeless people? Yes, we do. It doesn’t seem to be working, does it? The challenge in Gauteng is that you have almost 200 000 people who come to the province every year. Do the local authorities know what your policy is? Yes, they do. We’ve got an intergovernmental forum, so I do meet with those who are responsible for housing in the municipalities. So you must have been aware of the looming crisis in Tshwane? No, in Hammanskraal I was not aware until I saw the problem. Until the Red Ants moved in? Yes. I was definitely not aware of that problem. Isn’t this the kind of thing you should be discussing in your intergovernmental forum? There are a lot of things we discuss. But remember, people were settled in that area from January by local chiefs and some people. And then suddenly they were evicted without warning? Yes. That’s why I thought we should stop that eviction. So it isn’t part of your policy to evict people without warning and destroy their belongings? No. What happened in Tshwane is that they have a policy to evict people when they invade land. Most municipalities have a blanket court order that if there is a land invasion they will immediately evict. So Tshwane got a court order. Weren’t the people told they could live there? Tshwane officials felt more people had moved into that area, sort of invading it. That’s why they then acted. Do you condone the council’s behaviour? I don’t. That’s why I stopped the evictions. Is a council that behaves like this fit to govern? There are a lot of good things that Tshwane is doing. I wouldn’t condemn them for just one particular action. They believed they were acting within a court order that they had. Does a court order entitle them to attack people with rubber bullets and destroy their possessions? My understanding is that the mayor did not himself condone that action. That’s why in my discussion with him he agreed that we should stop it. He didn’t authorise that kind of action. Are you saying the mayor does not know what his officials are doing? No, he’s on top of the situation. This was just one unfortunate incident. More so because the victims had permission from the council to occupy the land? Yes. They said from a local councillor. The city is investigating exactly what happened. Do you believe them? I gave them the benefit of the doubt. If people move onto land with an understanding that they have a right to be there then it is unfair to evict them. That is why I said to the mayor we should stop the demolition and eviction. Is it part of your coherent policy for local authorities to behave like this? Most certainly it is not. Where people have settled on land for a while you need to treat them differently. So the Tshwane authorities have been acting in defiance of provincial policy? My understanding is that this action was not authorised by the mayor. Has there been a collapse of government there? No. The people who did that believed that the blanket court order they had for land invasions allowed them to evict those people. Do you believe the mayor when he says he didn’t know what was happening? Most certainly. Because he would have acted differently. That’s why he’s investigating why the officials moved in that direction. Do you find it alarming that unelected officials can behave like this without the council’s knowledge or approval? Yes, I have condemned it strongly and the mayor is taking action. It will never happen again. Shouldn’t they have known that people were told on the radio and in public meetings by a councillor that they could move onto the land? The mayor is investigating, because councillors are not allowed to settle people on any government land. That must be a decision of the council and the mayor who has executive authority. Why did you take so long to step in? Under normal circumstances I would have wanted to know about this earlier, but I only noticed when the evictions were taking place and there was a big public outcry. Was it only because of the public outcry and approaching elections that you intervened? No, I would never allow this to happen in any circumstances. For me it’s a humanitarian issue, not an election issue. Clearly not for your mayor, who was happy to allow it until you stepped in? It would be unfair to say he was happy with it. He didn’t stop it, did he? We had a discussion and he said: “I don’t think this thing must be allowed to continue.”