So Many Questions

Statistician-general Pali Lehohla told the higher education fees commission of inquiry that black students did better at university under apartheid. Chris Barron asked him . . .

You say that although more black students are going to university than ever before, a greater proportion are dropping out? That’s true.

Why? If you look at the circumstances at university . . .

Material circumstances? Yes.

So nothing to do with being ill-served by a poor basic education system? Once students qualify for university then surely they must be university-ready. If a university sets a standard of who they will accept, then those they have accepted must of necessity be ready to cope with university. But there are myriad circumstances under which black students go to university . . .

You’re saying they drop out because they can’t afford proper food and accommodation? All those things that count for poor students who require support from their parents. Instead, they find themselves having to support their families. That is the core of the problem.

But you say a greater proportion of black students who went to university under apartheid graduated than are graduating today? Yes, indeed.

Surely you’re not suggesting that the socioeconomic conditions for these students were better than now? No, not at all. They were even more difficult because of apartheid.

So why did proportionally more of them graduate than now? The churches gave them scholarships, the UN gave them scholarships . . . full scholarships that covered everything. So when they were at university they had all the material resources they needed to study. If the students today were getting what they used to get from the anti-apartheid movements sponsoring them, they would breeze through university like the white and Indian children. But they’re confronted by all these challenges that constrain them from progressing.

Might it be that academic standards required for university admission were higher than today? Whether apartheid academic standards were higher or not I cannot affirm. What I do know is that black and white and Indian children write the same exams, and when they’ve passed and get to university, black children do not progress as fast as white children. Universities have an admission standard that they set, and on the basis of that criterion anybody who is at university must of necessity be academically ready for university.

Do you have stats showing what percentage of black students from former Model C schools graduate? I do not have that readily on me but what I do know about the Independent Examinations Board [which assesses private schools] is that upwards of 80% of them are university material.

Might those stats suggest that an important reason so many black students drop out is because they’ve had inferior schooling? I wouldn’t argue that. The students all meet certain standards by which they are admitted to university. When they qualify for university they are ready to go. It is these material circumstances of poverty that hold them back. Isn’t it a bit of a cop-out to blame economic factors rather than a defunct education system? No. What we are talking about when we talk about dropout rates are people who have passed matric. Once they have passed matric they have proved they are ready for university.

You don’t think the high university dropout rate is an indictment of matric standards? I would ascribe it more to the circumstances surrounding students at university.

So why did you tell the commission the solution is to fix basic education? That has to be fixed because you can’t have so many children failing.

At school or university? At basic education level.

Do you have stats showing how our university dropout rates compare with those in other developing countries? Let me put it this way. Not everybody has to go to university.

Is our problem that too many students are going to university? No. There aren’t sufficient entry points for students to go to teachers’ colleges, policing colleges and so on. That’s what is the problem.

So by focusing on making access to university easier, are we focusing on the wrong problem? No. The system must provide the skills for people to take on their own life challenges and challenges of the country.

Including, in the case of basic education, skills to cope with university? It’s about how do teachers, parents, principals and students cope at schools. That’s where the problem is. The resources that go to basic education are humongous and should allow students to go through. But the circumstances under which the children grow up are very difficult.

Why do countries with higher levels of poverty, where children experience the same or worse conditions, achieve better academic results? Inequality is a very evil thing because [it] causes discontent. High levels of inequality create major problems and we have a very high level of inequality. Inequality destroys social cohesion, and social cohesion is what provides the system of support for education.

Are you saying we can’t fix basic education until we’ve eradicated inequality? No, those things have to run simultaneously.