So Many Questions
Former ANC MP Vytjie Mentor was one of the first to blow the whistle on state capture when the Guptas offered her a cabinet post. Chris Barron asked her . . .
Does the extent of state capture revealed in the e-mails surprise you? Not at all. And I think there is still much to be exposed. This thing runs very deep. It affects everything — municipalities, provincial government, national government.
How was it allowed to get so bad? For anybody to capture the state you have to capture the ruling party, which is what happened over many years. When the ruling party facilitates state capture . . .
Will removing President Jacob Zuma save the ANC? Never. It doesn’t help to deal with one individual and leave the whole network of patronage and corruption intact. Even those who are speaking out now — Zuma did this with their assistance and in their presence and under their watch. So you remove Zuma today and put [Cyril] Ramaphosa. Then you answer the question: what did Ramaphosa do when the Constitutional Court ruled that Zuma failed to defend, uphold and respect the constitution? Nothing.
Why did he do nothing?
So you don’t think making Ramaphosa president will save the ANC? It is not going to save the ANC. They will still lose in 2019. And I think they should, actually.
Why? Because they don’t listen to the electorate. Because they do as they please. They don’t even listen to their own members when 68% of them say Zuma must go.
Why do they think they can get away with this? I don’t think they do. I think there is too much at stake for them to listen to their members and the electorate. Because they, and I’m talking about the leadership, have not been innocent spectators in this saga. If you are sitting on a board when things go wrong you can’t say in a court of law: “I was just spectating, I was not part of it, the chairperson was responsible.” You are held liable. So the stakes are high for them.
What will it take to end the corruption? A constituent assembly comprising all stakeholders including civil society, and a new electoral act to make sure there is direct election of the president and a strong constituency-based electoral system where the constituency can withdraw their vote for a delinquent MP. Then a fresh election and a new government that must look into why the NPA has not been carrying out its constitutional mandate of prosecuting those it should be prosecuting, and why the law enforcement agencies are not doing what they’re supposed to do. Then they must bring people to book.
The Guptas made their offer in 2010. Why did you wait until last year to go public? In 2013 when the Gupta jet landed at Waterkloof, I put it on the social platform. And then again around the time of Marikana.
So we as South Africans knew about it for three years at least before last year, and did nothing? Yes.
Is this because there was already a culture of corruption? Yes. Because of the party corruption became endemic in the government, in the country and all over.
Is this why you were ignored by the stalwarts of the party who are now so vocal? Yes. Because some of them, including a someone in the “101” that now want to look so upright, are the key architects of the mess we find ourselves in.
Going back to the Mbeki administration? Yes. He was the first minister to put a Gupta in a very strategic board, and from there things began to happen.
So there was already a culture that was accepting of corruption? Yes.
Did you do enough to hold Mbeki accountable when you were chair of the ANC caucus in parliament? In what respect?
When he tried to stop the NPA investigating police commissioner Jackie Selebi, for example? There will always be regrets that I should have done more, I could have done better. But I was the first MP to say to the ANC: “Corruption is getting endemic.”
When? I regret that I did not persistently carry through that message in the ANC caucus. I think if I could have done that as chair of caucus we would have somehow averted the scale of the corruption that we find ourselves with today. I should have been more persistent.
Did you do enough to hold the members of your caucus accountable who committed fraud in the Travelgate scam? I went to Luthuli House to inform the secretary-general, Kgalema Motlanthe. He said to me: “Is it a train smash?” I said: “I think it is a train smash.”
But they were allowed to keep their seats? The constitution says if you have been found guilty with the option of a fine, then you can hold office, which translates into keeping your seat.
Is this where the culture of corruption started? If you take Bathabile Dlamini, today she has not abated in her corrupt acts because she was given a lifeline then. We were all shocked when she came back to parliament to be deputy minister.