LAMPARD v CARRAGHER
AFIERCE rivalry resumes on Tuesday when Liverpool tackle Chelsea. It’s become one of English football’s standout fixtures. JAMIE CARRAGHER met his old friend FRANK LAMPARD for breakfast at a central London hotel to discuss the Anfield showdown, past battles and what the future holds.
CARRAGHER: There’s a question I’ve wanted to ask you for 20 years. How did Peter Taylor make you England Under 21 captain ahead of me? I’d been in the squad two years then, out of nowhere, you come along!
LAMPARD: I remember you getting the hump! I was surprised but maybe it was something to do with me being more articulate! An England captain needs to look the part, doesn’t he?
CARRAGHER: You came back to our room to tell me! I couldn’t believe it. Do you remember when we first met at the Lilleshall trials in 1992? I played up front then. I knew about you because my dad had told me about the goal your dad scored for West Ham in the 1980 FA Cup semi-final.
LAMPARD: We were 14 and stayed up there for a week, didn’t we? I went to private school and I was a little, chubby, shy kid. I remember being a bit nervous around everyone.
I got the letter three weeks after the trial to tell me I hadn’t made it. I thought to myself, ‘How the **** did that mouthy Scouser get through?’ I Liverpool credit but they gave you an extra man. But the basic rivalry was you and Stevie (Gerrard) and me and John (Terry).
CARRAGHER: Who is the better pair out of those two then?
LAMPARD: Probably me and Stevie! People still love asking me, ‘What’s Stevie like? Do you get on?’ It wasn’t that we didn’t get on. But you knew the line. You’d have dinner when we were all together at England but you knew it was all business.
CARRAGHER: I know. You’d go to lunch, have a good chat and then you go back to your room and say, ‘I can’t stand him!’
LAMPARD: It wasn’t that we had fallen out. We’d been in the Under 21s, we’d been room-mates. When you start playing against each other, you dislike each other because of the rivalry. But isn’t that what made us players? We wanted to win.
CARRAGHER: Chelsea nearly signing Stevie was massive for the rivalry. So were the fans, Jose Mourinho coming in and the League Cup final in Cardiff in February 2005. I remember talking to you as we came off the pitch at half-time. Six months later you wouldn’t have dreamt of doing that.
LAMPARD: When Jose came in and Roman Abramovich took over, we became the money team and people disliked us. There is a natural divide from Liverpool — a working-man’s club that’s had a lot of success off the back of tradition.
We were the new kids on the block who had a few quid and signed a load of players. Jose puffed his chest out and then we kept playing each other. It was a clash of two ideals.
CARRAGHER: The games were probably a hard watch really. But to play in them? The intensity… I don’t know about you but it felt if you made one mistake, you would lose.
LAMPARD: The pressure was huge. We could never play out from the back at Anfield. Never. You would hem us in. You’d look at Dirk Kuyt during the season and think, ‘He’s not a great player’. But when he played us, he would press Ashley Cole down to the corner flag. You couldn’t get out. You knew that if you went 1-0 down, you were struggling. It was a game like no other, such a knife edge. Then there was the fear of losing.
CARRAGHER: Exactly! Sometimes you felt happier they hadn’t won. We played three semi-finals in three years and it was brilliant to win but at the same time you think, ‘I’m glad they haven’t won’. You can’t help it…
LAMPARD: I hated losing the second semi-final (in the Champions League in 2007) on penalties just as much as when Kuyt scored the winner. The Luis Garcia goal, I don’t have too many hang ups on. Whether it was a goal or not, I don’t really care. Liverpool deserved to win that game by rights. You got a 0-0 draw at our place and played very well at Anfield.
CARRAGHER: Another game I wanted to talk about was the Champions League semi-final in 2008. You had just lost your mum. It was a huge, emotional moment.
LAMPARD: It was a low point in my life. I wouldn’t say it put an end to the rivalry but before the game, Stevie gave me flowers during the handshake. When things like that happen, it makes you realise the rivalry was that little bit less. It was a small gesture but it meant so much.
CARRAGHER: Chelsea won 3-2 and you scored a penalty in extra-time to make it 2-1. Did you not think about giving the responsibility to someone else? LAMPARD: I always wanted to be a winner, to score goals. There was no massive bravery in terms of my mum passing away and stepping up. I just wanted to score. I know everyone would have given me a pass on it if I hadn’t taken it. But I’d have had the hump with myself if I’d shirked it. CARRAGHER: Talking about penalties, do you remember the one you took at Anfield? You beat us 4-1 in October 2005. I bet you £100 you wouldn’t score as you were getting ready to take it… LAMPARD: I slipped it under Pepe Reina, didn’t I? He dived the right way but it went in! CARRAGHER: I gave you the money though! £100 wouldn’t get you far down here, mind. Probably get you a coffee and croissant! LAMPARD: You know what I remember from that game? I took a corner in front of the Kop — they’d been
giving me loads — so I gave them a little signal. And you didn’t like it! You came over and started shouting, ‘What the **** are you doing?!’
CARRAGHER: The rivalry takes over doesn’t it? There was a game at Stamford Bridge, we were around the referee then you came steaming over and shouted, ‘**** off! Who are you? You think you’re Mr ****ing Liverpool!’ I’m not normally stumped for words but I was then!
LAMPARD: I remember! Every time something happened, you would be there, flying out from the back with that big ****ing voice! I was thinking, ‘For once, just stay out of it’. It was quite good for me, wasn’t it?
CARRAGHER: There was always something riding on those games. I thought Tuesday’s game would be the same but Liverpool have lost their form at the wrong time.
Chelsea have been outstanding this season. Do you think they will win the title no matter what happens at Anfield in a few days’ time?
LAMPARD: I can’t see anyone catching them. They are the most organised team. Diego Costa and Eden Hazard are the difference. You have got to give the manager Antonio Conte a load of credit, too.
They were in a bad place last year. I went back and got treatment for a week last season when I was injured. The dressing room felt terrible. Guus Hiddink was there, they were 12th in the league. People were injured, they weren’t playing well and you could smell it wasn’t right. They needed to change the whole mentality. Conte has done that without changing too much in terms of players. He made a few additions and N’Golo Kante has been fantastic, but Conte was exactly what they needed.
CARRAGHER: Have you heard the statistic about Conte? He has won 61 of his last 70 games as a club manager! That’s extraordinary…
LAMPARD: I’ve seen what he does. He runs them. They all look fit, lean and know their jobs. They are flying. I watched them against Hull. They were a bit off the pace but won 2-0.
Arsenal got out of jail last week but I don’t see them or Manchester City churning out wins like Chelsea. I like Liverpool and Jurgen Klopp but they don’t have the consistency.
CARRAGHER: I said recently Kante was the player of 2016, he does an amazing job…
LAMPARD: Don’t forget Cesar Azpilicueta. He’s been brilliant. Costa and Hazard get the limelight but he’s basically a right back and a centre half. He is tailor-made for that role. He’s probably been player of the season. CARRAGHER: How much did you actually enjoy playing? I have been
finished for almost four years and I still think, ‘Did I enjoy it enough?’ You are that intense, everything is about the next game. Do you think to yourself sometimes, ‘I wish I could have enjoyed that a bit more?’ LAMPARD: I’m completely with you. When I look back, I didn’t enjoy any of the big games. I didn’t enjoy any of the finals. You enjoy lifting the trophy and the celebrations. But it was always the next game.
I had a fear of losing, a fear of what might happen if I had a bad game. Would I get dropped? Will Liverpool and Manchester United be better than us next year? I don’t remember a lot of stuff in my career. CARRAGHER: You remember calling me Mr Liverpool! LAMPARD: Ha! But it’s the focus. You are driven. I never sat there and thought, ‘This is great, I’m playing really well.’
CARRAGHER: Do you still want to play? Come on — you want to play the final 10 matches for Chelsea to get another medal!
LAMPARD: I see you, Rio Ferdinand and Stevie, all retired. There is a part of me that wants to stay in the game. Sometimes I don’t know why. It just feels this is what I do.
I’ve had two months off now. It takes me six weeks to relax and realise I haven’t got to train every day and think about the pressures. There was a point in the middle of my career where I was too driven. I didn’t enjoy it. It’s much easier now.
I went to watch City v Tottenham last week and seeing Dele Alli score, I thought, ‘What a great moment for that lad, he’s got his whole career ahead of him’. When I was that player, I never had that chance to step back and think, ‘This is great’. It’s stressful isn’t it? You worry all the time.
CARRAGHER: That’s right. Look at Michael Owen, Stevie, Wayne Rooney. They were in the England team as teenagers, it came naturally. We had to do it the orthodox way: Under 21s, bide your time, wait for your chance. It was never on a plate and it was as if you were always being questioned.
LAMPARD: Part of it came from my dad being a player. I was never that quick as a kid, so I had to get quicker. I trained hard. I was never that player who could roll out and relax, like Michael or Stevie, who were natural.
There were loads of things I had to do around my game during the week to get up there: extra sprints, distance runs, shooting practice. I was so focused on being the player I wanted to be.
It was stressful trying to stay on the edge but I knew if I dropped a level, if I got sloppy in training, I would fall behind. I will be the same as you when I retire. I know you don’t miss it. I just look forward to doing something different.
CARRAGHER: What is stopping you from saying you have retired then?
LAMPARD: Stevie made up his mind and was comfortable finishing the way he did. I wasn’t sure. I loved being in America. It was a great experience. People will be drawn to China because of the money but the lifestyle, everything about America, I couldn’t recommend it enough.
I always wanted to play abroad. I had a chance to go to Italy when I was younger and that would have been tough because of the language. America is easier but I really loved it.
But in terms of not retiring? I don’t want to leave and think to myself, ‘Maybe I should have stayed a bit longer’. I’m dwelling on it. I have turned down a few Premier League offers. But the fact is, after being at Chelsea for so long and a year with Manchester City, I don’t want to get involved in a relegation dogfight.
I don’t mind challenges but there comes a point when you have to take stock. I understand my weaknesses. It’s late January now and to try and get fit and then get into a team and make a massive impact... I don’t feel I could give enough. I just want to make sure I make the right decision. I’ve appreciated getting options at 38. If something comes along that floats my boat, who knows? But nothing has, so we will see.
CARRAGHER: What are you planning to do in the future? Do you see yourself back at Chelsea?
LAMPARD: In an ideal world, yes. But I don’t think that’s reality. I have to think about myself. I’m finally going to start my coaching badges next week at B level. The FA are trying to help, (FA technical director) Dan Ashworth has been in touch. I know he’s also helping Stevie.
There are opportunities to make it a quicker process than it was before. That would be great. I’ll be in football. There is also media work. I’ve got respect for what you do.
CARRAGHER: That could be you if you play your cards right...
LAMPARD: I could take your job, just like I did with the Under 21s!
‘I have rejected a few Premier League offers’