ANT-MAN AND THE WASP
In 2015’s Ant-man, Paul Rudd superheroed solo. Now sequel Ant-man And The Wasp has elevated Evangeline Lilly to equal billing status. The pair talk to Empire about the biggest little blockbuster around
The minuscule Marvel heroes are back, ready to face their greatest nemesis: a jumbo-sized can of Raid.
When Constantin Stanislavski, the legendary acting theorist and teacher, said, “There are no small parts, only small actors,” he clearly didn’t have the Marvel Cinematic Universe in mind. There are few parts smaller — literally (and we don’t mean the new definition of literally; we mean the old definition, which literally means literally) — than Ant-man and the Wasp, the half-size heroes who spend much of their time shrinking down to the size of… well, you can probably guess.
So Stanislavski was wrong about small parts. And, sorry, Constantin, but you’re wrong about the “only small actors” part too. (Stanislavski’s having a shocker.) Paul Rudd and Evangeline Lilly played the roles in 2015’s energetic and entertaining Ant-man. Well, sort of. That movie saw Rudd’s Scott Lang be chosen to wear the Ant-man costume by Dr Hank Pym (Michael Douglas), much to the vocal chagrin of his daughter Hope, played by Lilly. Only at the very end, in a post-credits sting, did Pym present Hope with her very own flying costume, so she can follow in the wing steps of her mother, Janet, as the Wasp. “About damn time,” she replied.
Marvel Studios have got most things right in building their all-conquering canon, but their track record with representation hasn’t been spotless. Case in point: they didn’t have a solo black lead until Black Panther, film number 18. And now, just two films later, comes their first film with a female hero in the title, with Lilly’s Hope given equal billing with Rudd’s Lang in Ant-man And The Wasp. About. Damn. Time.
Empire caught up with Rudd, who also co-wrote the movie, and Lilly, over the phone, the morning after they attended the Avengers: Infinity War premiere in Los Angeles, for a freewheeling chat that took in equality, Scott and Hope’s unique position as superheroes who are schtupping each other, and the joys of following in the wake of that Infinity War ending.
Hey guys, how are you? Rudd: Good, how are ya?
Lilly: I’m excellent. Any time I’m sitting in a room having a conversation with Paul Rudd, I’m having a good time.
Rudd: That is so nice to hear. It’s not true.
You’re meant to return the compliment, Paul.
Lilly: Well, he’s not English, so he doesn’t have your sensibilities.
Rudd: Let me tell you about Evangeline. Lilly: Uh-oh.
Rudd: She’s the greatest. I love her dearly and I’m so excited to be sitting next to her. Not just today, but for the next seven weeks.
Lilly: For the rest of our lives.
Rudd: I wish you could see us. We dressed up. For a fuckin’ phone interview! I don’t know what we were thinking. Maybe we can text you a photo.
Ant-man And The Wasp comes out in the UK a month after it comes out in the States. Now, I know you guys have got clout. Can you do something? Can you pull some strings? Rudd: Let me make a call. That’s crazy, right? Lilly: It doesn’t make sense. Rudd: There’s a reason, clearly. Lilly: They always do that. Then what
happens is people just pirate the movie and they see it in the worst way possible, like some shitty version online, instead of going to a theatre. They go in the end, but I don’t like that staggering. I’m really going to get to the bottom of this for you. I’m as pissed off about it are you are.
My theory: it’s something to do with the World Cup.
Rudd: I think you’re probably right. I don’t understand. Let me see if we can’t maybe get the World Cup moved.
The title of Ant-man And The Wasp was announced about three months after the first movie came out. So we knew very early on that it was going to be about the two of you. At what point did you know the title?
Rudd: I think pretty early on. This was what the story was. This is what it is in the comics, too.
Lilly: When we got the script for the first film, we knew that Wasp was going to become a superhero character. But I don’t think I found out the title of this one until not long before the world did. I was jazzed. I was so excited. I didn’t know that was going to happen. I knew I was going to become the Wasp. It felt really special and really cool, that my name was going to be in the title of the movie.
It all links back to what Hope says at the end of the first movie: “About damn time.”
Rudd: It made sense. It made sense in the story and it made sense in the world. It’s nice that everyone’s waking up to the fact that the world would be better off if there were more women kicking ass, both in front of and behind the camera. And not just in the filmmaking business. It was very exciting. And about time.
Lilly: I don’t think I realised just how much it meant to me until last night. I went to the Avengers: Infinity War premiere last night. There’s this thing that happens in that movie where you realise women are starting to be represented in a way they just haven’t been. I didn’t realise how little they were being represented until I see them now, properly, being represented. It almost had me out of my seat, applauding. I did involuntarily scream out a swear word because I was so excited. I felt choked up at the end of that film. I get really emotional a lot right now with the Time’s Up movement, not just with Hollywood, but with the country, and it means everything to me.
You’ve said in the past that the idea of being the first MCU female hero to be mentioned in the title is
a wonderful honour, but it also terrifies you.
Lilly: It is terrifying! The good news is that I feel a little less terrified now that it’s done, because I can’t do anything about it. The pressure’s off; it’s either going to be great or it’ll suck. But the good news is that there’s still Ant-man so it can’t be that bad. He’ll make it amazing, and whatever happens to the Wasp…
Rudd: Aren’t you amazed at how well we get along?
Lilly: It’s so cute. You should see us right now. I tried to plant a security camera in the room, but they wouldn’t let me. Paul, Ant-man is still a big part of the equation. How did you feel about sharing that title? Lilly: He was so pissed off about it. That’s a joke. Rudd: I think it’s great. I think... AT THIS POINT, the line goes dead. Not because of Thanos, or some overzealous Marvel security goon, but some technical snafu Empire will never fully understand. Thankfully, minutes later, the phone rings again, and we’re off to the races. Again.
Rudd: Hey, Chris! Lilly: What happened? Honestly, this has never happened to me before. I feel so embarrassed. Rudd: Well, it’s okay. We’ve got three minutes left.
So, you were saying…
Rudd: What I was saying is, I was thinking about this while we were finishing up the first one. I was really excited. It gives both characters a place to go. It makes for a really exciting story and it makes for a really unique story because we’re the only team.
Lilly: True!
Rudd: That creates, storyline-wise, so many different directions you could take it. I was really excited to get started. I think both Evangeline and I loved doing it and being the first team.
Lilly: I was asked a few times already, are you hoping for a standalone Wasp movie? Emphatically, no. I really love, love, love, love the Ant-man and the Wasp team.
Rudd: And it’ll never happen. I put the kibosh on it.
Lilly: [Laughs] And what I really love is the Moonlighting rub of how different Scott and Hope are, and that chemistry is there because they’re so different. I love seeing that play out.
You’re the first team. Do you think of them as the first couple? They had that moment at the end of the first movie. Rudd:
Personally, I don’t think of them as that, as the first couple. These two characters, it’s a partnership. There’s the team aspect but they’re also individuals, and there are certain things going on in each of their lives that have nothing to do with the other person.
Lilly: I’m going to give you the girl answer, which is, “No, we’re not the first couple because there was Hulk and Black Widow, and then we saw a budding thing between Scarlet Witch and Vision.” There have been couplings happening in the Avengers for a long time now. Rudd: Tony and Pepper.
Lilly: Yeah. Tony and Pepper were really the first couple.
So, how do you see this partnership, Evangeline? Lilly:
A pain in the ass. [Laughs] This is unique in that this is not Hope’s origin story of when she becomes the Wasp. She has been ready to be the Wasp for most of her life. She hits the ground running. What it is, is an origin of this partnership. How does this dynamic fighting duo come into their own and figure out what the partnership looks like? At the core of it, is Hope a lone ranger? Or does she need Scott?
TO SAY THAT Ant-man had an eventful production history is an understatement up there with ‘Thanos has some issues’. Original director Edgar Wright, who had worked on the project for almost a decade, left with just a few weeks before filming began, whistling that old tune, ‘Creative Differences’. Rather than push production back, Marvel scrambled to bring in Peyton Reed, a longstanding Ant-man fan, to direct, while Rudd helped to rework the script. That the finished film was coherent, let alone one of the most joyful entries in the MCU, was a minor miracle, so it was no surprise that Reed came back to direct the sequel.
Let’s talk Peyton Reed. Lilly:
That jerk! (Quickly) That’s a joke as well. You’re not in the room, it’s very dangerous. Things can be misinterpreted.
Rudd: And that’ll probably get credited to me. That’s happened before. It’s like, “And then Paul Rudd said this.” THAT WASN’T ME! I’m not saying this is an example of that.
Lilly: Completely different.
I’m going to completely misquote you on everything. Lilly:
You seem like my kind of guy.
I haven’t been listening to a word either of you said, to be honest. I’ll make the whole thing up. Rudd:
I’m not even in the room.
On the first film, Peyton came aboard late in the day. Is there more of a sense of confidence with this one, given you’ve all been on board from the off ? Rudd:
Despite what the world might have thought, there was confidence from day one on the first Ant-man. Now, there is a real kind of familiarity. We’ve worked together before. We know the world, we all kind of created it in shooting the first film together. A shorthand, and a trust. I think we all really trust Peyton. He’s such a great guy and such a steady hand, guiding this ship.
Lilly: It never felt like he was a puppet on a string or anything like that. But I think, for me as a performer, I need time to warm to the deep, deep trust that is required to put your performance, and put yourself, totally in the hands of a director without reserve. I think on the first film there was a certain measure of reserve on my part. Not knowing what we were making, not knowing what it was like to work with Peyton, not knowing, not knowing, not knowing. Then, coming into this film, one of the first conversations I had with Peyton was to tell him, “Listen, I saw the first movie we made. And I love the movie we made. I trust you absolutely.”
This is the second time an Antman movie has followed a big old everything-exploding Avengers film. This movie is almost an amusebouche, if you will, but does it have more of an impact on the MCU going forward than people might think? Rudd:
It’s funny. We were at the Infinity War premiere last night, all sitting together. As soon as the credits came up, we looked over to Peyton and said, “Okay, now we’re on deck.” And we started chuckling about it. There is
this feeling that we get to take the stage after the Beatles have just played. Yet there is, I think… we’re confident in our film. It’s its own thing and it has its own distinct personality. It does exist in this universe and how it exists in this universe is for people to discover. We’re our own thing, but we’re not in a vacuum here. It is part of a…
Lilly: Big design. We’re part of a universe.
Rudd: The grand electron.
In terms of the Quantum Realm, the dimension into which Scott travelled at the end of the first movie, being a part of this film, might that have ramifications going forward? Can you talk about that? Rudd: Lilly: Rudd:
No.
No, I don’t think we can.
Not even a little. Let’s talk about the World Cup again.
You can get the World Cup moved, but you can’t talk about the Quantum Realm? Rudd:
It’s always tricky when you start getting into this. You’re a lovely guy, Chris. As people, we want to tell you everything. As employees, we can tell you nothing.
By the way, the Queen has given me special dispensation to hear spoilers. Rudd: Lilly:
Really? Oh, she’s allowed it.
I don’t know if you heard, but she’s not our Queen anymore.
Oh yeah, there was that whole business a few years ago. Lilly:
Yeah, that thing that happened.
Yes, I saw Hamilton and it filled me in. Lilly:
That’s not totally accurate. I’m Canadian, so she is still my Queen.
Oh, so you can tell me spoilers. Lilly: Rudd:
Exactly. Paul can’t, though. My queen is Beyoncé. HERE’S THE THING about Ant-man And The Wasp: Ant-man and the Wasp aren’t the only Ant-man and the Wasp. As well as Scott and Hope, there’s a multi-generational thing going on, with the story partially concerning the efforts by Hope and Hank, the original Ant-man, to find their mother, Janet (the original Wasp), once thought lost in the Quantum Realm. Given Michelle Pfeiffer is on board as Janet, it’s safe to assume that, at some point, they find her.
Can you talk about working with Michael and Michelle? Rudd:
I had worked with Michelle before, in London on a film that Amy Heckerling directed [I Could Never Be Your Woman]. I’m crazy about her. She has the same thing that Michael has, this aura. When they’re on set, even the crew is acting and behaving a little differently. Now the grown-ups are here.
Lilly: I never want to work with anyone again other than Michael and Michelle. I’m going to have a rider in my contracts for the rest of my career that says, “I will only do this movie if you put Michael Douglas and Michelle Pfeiffer in it.” When Peyton would call action and Michael Douglas would open his mouth and start speaking, it was like the molecules in the room changed and you’re transported into the place you’re supposed to be.
In the first movie, there’s a picture of Janet with her head artfully tilted so you don’t see the actor’s face. So they could cast anyone they wanted down the line. You must have had Michelle
Pfeiffer on a dream list. Lilly:
Yeah. I was verbal about it. I told the producers, “If you ever actually bring my mom into the movie, can it be Michelle Pfeiffer?” I swear to God, I have had a crush on her ever since
I was a little girl and I think she’s incredible. I’ve admired her. She was Catwoman, which is in my opinion the best female in a superhero movie in my generation.
Rudd: Not just our generation. My daughter is eight years old and currently going through a Grease phase. She loves Grease and Grease 2. My daughter doesn’t care about anybody or what I’m doing. But when I said, “I was working with Stephanie Zinone today,” that blew her mind. Now, if we can just get Olivia Newton-john for the next one, if there is a next one, oh boy. My daughter would be thrilled.
Do it as a musical. Remake Xanadu with you guys. Lilly:
Oh my God, I just had a picture of Paul Rudd doing the musical version of Ant-man, and I really want to see that now.
Rudd: You know, times have changed. Go back and dissect ‘Greased Lightning’. Seriously, it’s shocking. It’s a very strange thing when your daughter is walking around singing about chicks creaming. It’s in the song! I thought it was bad that my 13-year-old son is singing hip-hop. “That’s not appropriate.” This is way worse!
You mentioned “the next one”. Presuming you make it through Avengers 4: Xanadu, where can this go? Rudd:
You’re making assumptions that we can neither deny nor confirm. We are as in the dark about everything as you are.
Lilly: But what’s cool about this moment is the potential, and the options of where they can go with the Avengers’ world and the story. It’s limitless. There is a sense of the closing of one chapter and the opening of another. That’s exciting.
WITH THAT, OUR time is up. Goodbyes are said, phones are replaced in their cradles, lives are resumed. They never did send that picture of what they’re wearing. And the World Cup remains stubbornly unmoved. There are some things, it seems, even superheroes can’t change. ANT-MAN AND THE WASP IS IN CINEMAS FROM 3 AUGUST