GEORGE SHELLEY

In conversation with Sir Ian McKellen.

As we climb the stairs to an empty bar at the Duke of York’s Theatre in Central London, we can already hear Gay Times cover star George Shelley deep in conversation with Sir Ian McKellen.

We’re at the venue as Sir Ian is scheduled to go on stage as King Lear in a few hours, but kindly agreed to interview George for this very special feature ahead of the release of his new single Lose To Find.

The two sparked up a friendship years prior when the 25-year-old singer-songwriter – still one-quarter of Union J at the time – told the actor confidentially that he’s gay. Sir Ian has since checked in on the young star, congratulating him when he did come out publicly. Even the night before this conversation took place, Sir Ian called George up in tears after watching his powerful BBC Three documentary Learning to Grieve, which deals with the process he endured after his sister Harriet passed away in 2017.

The pair touch upon how it has changed George’s outlook on life in this insightful and inspiring conversation.

Sir Ian: Now I bet you get asked, ‘When did you first know you were gay?’ And I always say, ‘Well when did you first know that you weren’t?’ But, along those lines, what were the first inclinations you had of being aware that other people were gay?

George: It must have been through television and, honestly, having a computer in the house for the first time. We had a household computer that we’d share, and my brother actually caught me looking up what gay meant. I think someone at school when I was in year six...

IM: How old would that be?

GS: It was young. Like, 10 or 11. I Googled what gay meant and obviously when you search ‘gay’ quite a few pictures come up. My brother Will was like, ‘What are you doing?’ It was then between us for a long time. I didn’t really know what it was and I didn’t understand it.

IM: Were you searching because you felt you were gay, or that there was something about you that was different?

GS: Yeah, I guess as a kid I was intrigued. Because my dad left when we were younger we didn’t really have a father figure growing up, and the typical standard relationship you imagine your parents having wasn’t in our life.

IM: So you’d seen gay characters on television? GS: Yeah, for sure. It would have been in soaps and stuff. It’s just been a part of me. I can’t pinpoint it, because I feel like it has grown with me. It started off as a little seed at that age and then through the years and learning about life and where I want to go and what excites me, I guess...

IM: Were there any gay girls or boys at school? GS: I remember there was another boy at school in year six and we had a kiss behind the shed on the lips.

IM: Oh lovely! What’s happened to him?

GS: I don’t know. I’ve lost contact with him. We used to go to swimming club together, and everyone used to take the mickey. You would get kids being like ‘gay’ and it’s a form of abuse really. They don’t really understand what the word means. But because they’ve heard their parents saying it and they hear it in media, what gay meant to kids back then, it was a scary word. I think that’s kind of been quashed a little bit now.

IM: Did you get any discussion through teachers about the gay world?

GS: Nothing. No sex education. Nothing.

IM: You know that’s all different now. It’s illegal in this country for a school to discriminate on grounds of sexuality. So any kids saying ‘gay’ in a way to mean ‘useless’ is practically breaking the law, and certainly should be called out by the teachers. There’s been a huge revolution

that would’ve helped you and, well, a lot of us actually. So, did you search out any gay movies or books, or was it all just on the internet?

GS: It was Titanic probably. We used to watch it as a family as it was our favourite film.

IM: What were you looking at in that then?

GS: Jack!

IM: Now isn’t that interesting. You, a gay boy who perhaps didn’t quite realise it, attracted to a straight actor and it didn’t worry you that he was straight?

GS: No, it didn’t phase me at all.

IM: The reverse is supposed to be a problem – that if you’re straight you can’t be attracted to a gay character. But there we are. Well, good taste.

GS: Good taste!

IM: Did you think you’d ought to be talking about it at home?

GS: Not really. Home is a small town called Clevedon and the one kid in my year at school who came out, people would put labels on him because he was flamboyant – which is a beautiful thing – but people would judge him for that. He had a nightmare time. He was one of my best friends. I could see that he was having a hard time with it when he did decide to come out, and I was terrified of the same thing happening to me. It’s all about having role models, and I can’t pinpoint somebody who normalised it for me.

IM: Was it a bother to you?

GS: Yeah.

IM: Did you tell your brother about it?

GS: I didn’t until I came out and then we had a massive laugh about it. He was like, ‘George, I’ve known for ages!’

IM: That’s what my step-mother said when I came out. She said, ‘I’ve known that for 39 years!’

GS: It was the same with my sister. She was my closest friend.

IM: With regards to grief and with regards to this subject, it does seem that British people have a great difficulty talking about themselves personally.

GS: It’s because people have this false sense of pride. They want to plume their feathers and stick to these boundaries we’ve put on society. It’s all about conditioning. Unconditional love is going to be what breaks that. The thing with my family is that everyone has always loved each other with so much power, strength and compassion. Love has always triumphed in our family. So through all the dark times... We’ve had a lot of big traumatic events take place – not just with my sister, but before that with my dad’s accident, and my mum had a stroke – but we’ve always got through that, and no matter what we all love each other.

IM: Did you have anyone you met romantically that you called your girlfriend?

GS: Yeah, I had girlfriends. I actually lost my virginity to a girl, but when I was 21. And she’s now got a girlfriend! She’s happily in a relationship with the most beautiful girl. We just connected as humans and we loved each other, and we still do. She’s my best friend.

IM: Did you see that as an experiment or as a fulfilment?

GS: I loved the girl and I still do, and that’s my outlook on life: I love humans. I wouldn’t want to put a stamp on my sexuality. Although my sexual preference is male, I love women. I have females in my life who I will spend the rest of my life with.

IM: So when you were at uni and you were losing your virginity with girls and fancying boys, did you think ‘Oh this is all lovely – this is what life is for George,’ or did you want something else? GS: There was always an itch that needed scratching.

IM: What was this itch?

GS: Dick! [laughs] Do you know what, it’s male comfort for me. I love being comforted and protected, and I think it goes back to my childhood of feeling very lost and vulnerable and wanting to hide that side of me. But now as an adult I’m able to see that and fill that void. This is really honest, but it’s true and it’s how I perceive it: I love the comfort of a man. So I lost my virginity to a girl but that wasn’t until after the whole X Factor experience. When I was in the public eye, that was a scary time for me because I was then all of a sudden not only keeping this secret from my family, but from a lot more people.

IM: A lot of commentators on being gay would say that you were a victim and that society should have been kinder to you in the sense of teachers at school should’ve been helping you, noticing you were the person you were and seeing if they could bring you out of yourself. Would you say you’re a victim at all? Or do you think, ‘Oh well, I was just growing up and still am...’

GS: I think it was all internal. There’s this whole thing of suppressing your emotions and burying them. It’s almost like I pretended I was straight for a long time. I almost wanted to believe because I didn’t want to have to face the thought of judgement and criticism.

IM: When did you first hear of two men or two women getting married?

GS: Not until I moved to London. Jaymi – the gay member of Union J who was out – he was my first close gay friend. I remember having a meeting when I was asked to join the band, people were like, ‘Just to let you know there’s a gay member.’ And I’m like, ‘Why did you just have to let me know? You think that’s going to change my opinion of the band?’ If anything, I was like, ‘Cool, let’s go.’ I learned so much from Jaymi. He took me to my first gay bars. I saw him and his boyfriend have this perfect relationship, and they’re still together now. They love each other, and Jaymi told me they wanted to get married, and that opened up a whole new world for me. Then I started going to gay bars and meeting gay guys, and it all just became normal to the point where I’d go back home and I’d start feeling abnormal.

IM: When you were coming home from London, did you ever want to talk to your mother about it?

GS: Um, no.

IM: Was it a problem?

GS: How do I touch on this? I guess my mum... It’s a difficult subject still. She’s proud of me now. But the first thing she said to me was, ‘What am I going to tell my friends?’

IM: Oh god. So she’s like every other mother that ever was: ‘What are the neighbours going to think?’

GS: It was a lack of understanding. Once she realised that there’s this whole world out there, all of a sudden she was like, ‘Oh I think it’s pretty cool to have a gay son.’ I was like, ‘See mum. This is what I mean. Come to London for a year and spend a bit of time seeing the world.’ That’s what we need to do: educate kids of what the real world is like, and how much beauty there is in understanding who you are and how you can carve your future. But also to share that it’s important to not let your sexuality define your personality and your characteristics. It’s a part of you, it’s not who you are.

IM: Where does your mother live now?

GS: She’s still at home just outside of Bristol.

IM: Does Bristol have a Pride?

GS: It does – I’ve been to it.

IM: Did you take your mother with you?

GS: I didn’t, no. She came to Pride in London which is where you met her.

IM: Oh yes of course – backstage. That’s right. She was having a ball, wasn’t she.

GS: She was. But do you know what? When I said to my mum, ‘Come to Pride,’ she was like, ‘Oh I don’t know if that’s my kind of thing.’ I was like, ‘What do you mean?’ She was like, ‘Well isn’t it just feathers and naked men and water and oil?’ I was like, ‘Mum, no! It’s not just about the parade, it’s about community and having a place where you can feel free, accepted, comfortable, and understood.’ That’s what talking about mental health is all about, because once you understand how you’re feeling and other people understand it, that’s how you get the support. That’s how you’ll move forward. That’s also how, as a civilisation, we’ll start taking steps in the right direction.

IM: Let me just ask you this question: People will say, ‘Oh but I knew George Shelley was gay the moment I saw him. And he knows he’s gay. Why doesn’t he just come out – he’s a hypocrite.’ What was your answer to that before you came out?

GS: I said in the BBC Three documentary that I was worried about the fact that half of Union J...

IM: You were worried, or was it the management that was worried?

GS: I was worried, but I think the negative chatter in my head and the things that were convincing me

“It’s important to not let your sexuality define your personality

and your characteristics.”

that it was a bad decision were the outside voices manifesting in my head.

IM: Did you talk to Jaymi about it?

GS: He knew. It was an unsaid thing. It wasn’t until later on in our career – the back third end of it...

IM: So you hid it from the other guys?

GS: Yeah.

IM: Well that couldn’t have been easy?

GS: People knew, and then I started going out, Jaymi would take me to these clubs, and people would see me with these guys. I’d be kissing these guys on nights out like any other 20-year-old would do when you’re experimenting, and that’s absolutely OK. But because of the situation I was in – in the public eye selling records aimed at young girls – I feel like I was made to believe, and made to think, because of the things I was being told and the way I was conditioned, that it would’ve jeopardised the band’s career. And in turn jeopardise my own career.

IM: Do you think there’s any truth in that? Don’t young girls like the idea of their idols kissing each other?

GS: Yeah, I guess.

IM: If you look at those K-Pop bands, they’re overtly sexual with each other and the kids love it.

GS: I’ve just never thought of it like that.

IM: Oh yes. They know they’re never going to meet you and marry you. They know that – that’s all fantasy. The reality is they’re responding to a

lively, sexual presence. Well, that’s what I think anyway. Is there anybody in the world that you mind knowing that you’re gay?

GS: Oooh.

IM: I only ask you this because even I... I was in a cab the other day and the cabbie said, ‘Have you got any grandchildren Ian?’ I was like, ‘Oh fuck, it’s 3am – do I have to start explaining to him that I’m gay and that it wasn’t possible for me to be a father?’

GS: Would you have chosen to be a father?

IM: No, I thought it was one of the best things about being gay is that you didn’t have to have children. Or go in the army! So anyway, at 3am I was like, ‘Okay, I’m going to out myself to the taxi driver.’ So I went, ‘No, I’m gay’ and he went, ‘Yeah, so am I!’ But I just wondered if there’s any part of you that isn’t entirely out?

GS: No, I would tell everyone.

IM: Well congratulations, because that means you are through and out the other side. What’s happened to the closet door? Have you burnt it? GS: Definitely! To be honest I think part of it, losing my sister was the most awful thing that has ever happened to me and it really put into perspective how short life is, and how much you have to embrace who you are as a person. You have to embrace what makes you, you. I’d hate to have any regrets in the future, and to look back and be like, why didn’t you just enjoy it while it was there? My sister was all about being who she was. She was

very passionate about what she did, and she knew exactly who she was and what she wanted in life. I guess I’ve taken that and applied it to my own life. I don’t want to waste one day. I don’t want to lie and pretend I’m somebody I’m not.

IM: That’s fantastic. Let’s just ask this: don’t go into all the pain of losing your sister because that’s on record in what is, quite frankly, a beautiful documentary. But do you now feel that part of what George has to do is to help other people through situations that you’ve managed to deal with?

GS: I just hate to think that there are kids out there feeling what I felt – that confusion. When you’re suppressing your emotions like this, you bury and bury and bury and you don’t work through. The best way to move forward with this is to talk about stuff. I just hate to think that there’s someone in a small seaside town somewhere and all they’ve got is their computer to talk to. That’s where I was. It was just me and my friend, the laptop who I told everything to. That search history knew more about me than my friends and family. I just want to open my arms up and be like, ‘It’s okay to be you, and it’s okay to be proud. Life is there to embrace.’

IM: Is there anything else that you’d like to say? GS: Just, thank you.

IM: You are so articulate.

GS: Really? I said ‘dick’ though. Sorry for saying ‘dick’.

IM: Well that’s quite articulate!