SEBASTIÁN LELIO.
The Oscar-winning director on why love is an act of defiance with his new movie Disobedience.
A staunch ally of the LGBTQ community, moviemaker Sebastián Lelio baed this year’s Oscar for Best Foreign Language Film for A Fantastic Woman – his deeply moving story about a transgender woman fighting for her rights after the loss of her lover. His follow-up Disobedience, which arrives in UK cinemas this month after wowing critics Stateside, is the equally moving story of two women falling in love in an orthodox Jewish community.
All of which begs the question: Why is the straight director drawn to queer stories? “I’m interested in what I’m not,” he explains when in London to promote Disobedience. “I’m interested in using cinema as a bridge to connect with realities that are not my own.” Softly-spoken, Lelio nonetheless has strong views when it comes to who gets to tell our stories, insisting that artists should be free to tackle any subject. That extends to his leading ladies Rachel Weisz and Rachel McAdams, who Sebastián feels have every right to portray sexualities different to their own.
“Artistic freedom should never be restricted, never, and when it is it’s a symptom of fascism,” he says, pulling no punches and making no apologies. “When you see artists start to self-restrain themselves, to be afraid, then society should really worry. When I hear people say ‘Why did you cast two heterosexual women to play lesbians?’ I answer ‘Because I’m free and this is art’.” Why then, some might ask, did he cast transgender actress Daniela Verga as a transgender character in A Fantastic Woman? “Because she’s a great actress. It wasn’t about saying ‘Only transgender actors should interpret transgender roles’ because by doing that I’m implying that my friend Daniela should never be allowed to interpret a cisgender role. I don’t want to live in that world.”
The subject of stirring things up is at the heart of Disobedience, in which Weisz’s Ronit returns from Manhattan, where she’s working as a photographer, to the Jewish community of Hendon in London, from which she was ostracised for same-sex attractions, following the death of her rabbi father. Her arrival acts as a catalyst for McAdam’s Esti, who is married to a teacher and has been suppressing her sexuality.
Thought-provoking and passionate, the film is based on the novel by Naomi Alderman and its story resonated with Lelio even though he’s the first to point out he’s not British, Jewish or gay. “Despite all of that I found it strangely familiar,” he elaborates. “In previous films I’ve explored the friction between duty and desire and individual interests versus those of the community, the idea of family as both a prison and a master... I also loved the triangular dynamic of Ronit, Esti and Esti’s husband and the chance it offered to explore three narrative lines. I’d come from doing two films [Gloria and A Fantastic Woman] absolutely centred on one character so it was like the opportunity to be more baroque. I really connected with how moving the strules of the characters are. They are not always physically connected but they are always physically tied.”
Born in Argentina and raised in Chile, the director found Hendon to be a fascinating place with its thriving Jewish community in the heart of north-west London. “It’s a very real place but it also serves as a metaphor – a symbol of the tensions between what we are willing to allow others to do and the limits of right and wrong. That’s an eternal subject but also a contemporary one because we are always having that discussion: ‘Are we willing to see Others as legitimate people? Is there such a thing as illegitimate people? When there is no illegality or crime in a relationship, can love be illegal and if so who draws the line or under which authority?’”
A dozen consultants were hired to ensure the film captured cultural nuances and the texture of neighbourhood life. When it comes to homosexuality,
though, there’s no cut-and-dried line. “It depends on where you are because there are some branches of orthodoxy that are more fundamentalist and some are more integrated. I would say the one the film depicts is more progressive within the limits of orthodoxy.” Technically, he adds, lesbianism isn’t forbidden but the implication is that it’s wrong. “So the Jewish community isn’t the easiest place to be a gay woman.”
Given the critical acclaim for Disobedience, Sebastián could well be up for another Oscar – this time for Best Film, given that it’s his first Englishlanguage feature since he graduated from maker of short movies to director of full-length features. Gloria in 2013 was his breakthrough and A Fantastic Woman put him high on the list of international filmmakers to watch.
Feted at festivals and honoured at the Oscars, A Fantastic Woman is “still very much alive” for Lelio, who cites the reaction in Chile as being especially remarkable. “There was a gender identity bill sleeping in congress for five years, then we took the Oscar to the President and she re-awakened the law and now they are legislating for it.”
He’s equally proud of Disobedience, which could bring awards glory for his stars. He wrote the script with Weisz in mind and hit on the idea of pairing her with McAdams towards the end of the writing process. The latter is best-known for comedies like Mean Girls and Morning Glory and romances like The Notebook and The Time Traveler’s Wife. “So I thought it would be interesting to see someone who has so much light and so much joy and is so charming, then you put her in those wigs and grey clothes.”
‘Fearless’ is a word that’s been bandied about when it comes to Weisz and McAdam’s sex scene, but there’s nothing lurid or graphic about it. Sebastián choreographed it down to the last detail and says: “I was trying to find ways to avoid it being generic and to make it a real scene with real honesty to it. It moves the story forward and new aspects of the characters are revealed.”
Of course, this raises the tricky question of the male gaze, but Lelio is having none of it. “I was concerned about what the film needed and I wasn’t thinking about the male gaze discussion.” Choosing his words carefully, he adds: “I’m actually trying to liberate that concept from only negative connotations. I mean, what does it mean? That all male gaze is bad?”
Reaction to the film from the lesbian community has been favourable. “I’ve had a lot of nice messages, a lot of gratefulness, and in Santiago they threw a Disobedience-themed party which was packed. I find that really touching.”
Does the director think there are enough queer female love stories, no matter who is making them? “No, there aren’t, but then many things are underrepresented in society and it’s much more complex than mainstream representation. I do think it’s changing, though, but there aren’t enough stories like this. You don’t see too many films about gay women. We had Carol recently but I can’t think of many more.”
And he’s a champion for disobedience, declaring: “It’s a beauty and a human right and if it wasn’t for disobedience nothing would change. Someone has to disobey at some point for things to crack and for things to move forward and change. That’s true of society and it’s true of people.” Spoken like a true ally.