‘I don’t want to see any farmer go out of business’
FARMERS in Wales are furious about Welsh Government plans for replacing subsidies they received when Britain was in the European Union.
Part of the plans mean farmers will need to cover 10 per cent of their land with trees and 10 per cent with wildlife habitat in order for Wales to hit emissions targets.
Farmers have been protesting around the country in recent weeks and are planning more, claiming 5,500 farming jobs will be lost if the Welsh Government’s Sustainable Farming Scheme (SFS) goes ahead without major changes.
We sat down with the Rural Affairs Minister Lesley Griffiths, who said she hopes no farmers will go out of business and admits the Welsh Government will make changes to the scheme before it is rolled out.
But she remained firm on the need for farmers to play their part in the effort to reach net zero.
What’s Welsh Labour’s view on farmers? There is a perception among some farmers that Welsh Labour is not for them.
Lesley Griffiths: I completely disagree. We absolutely need to support the agricultural sector. You will have only ever heard me say that I cannot imagine a time where our agricultural sector won’t need public money, when it won’t need subsidies to help them do what we need them to do.
That is sustainable food production, but also helping us with our environmental targets. That beautiful landscape that we see, that’s all down to our farmers.
I think it’s really important that they understand that. That’s my stance. And I don’t hear any of my colleagues from the cabinet table saying anything different.
But people do have to recognise this new world that we’re in.
Before, the money for the basic payment scheme would just land in my portfolio and go straight out to our farms. That wasn’t scrutinised in a way that it is now scrutinised. That’s why I’ve said all along they need to educate the public about what they do. They don’t just produce food.
Food is very important but they do so much more and that needs to be articulated, because if they want more money, that money has to come from the health budget or the education budget or the transport budget in a way that it’s never had to before.
Outline in simple terms what the aims of the SFS are? When it has been in place for a number of years, how is Wales going to be different?
So the aim of the Sustainable Farming Scheme is to make sure we secure food production systems. That is absolutely the top priority. We know that our farmers are going to be farming in very different climates than what they’re used to with very different weather patterns.
It’s also about safeguarding the environment and addressing the climate and nature emergency, with both adaptation and mitigation. I absolutely recognise this is a period of great uncertainty for the agricultural sector. They’re used to a very different way of subsidy.
The accusation that we’re not listening I absolutely disagree with. We’ve been doing this for seven years. We’ve had two previous consultations. We’ve had two periods of intensive co-design where we’ve had around 1,600 farmers helping us. The farming unions have worked with us from day one on the structure of the sustainable farming scheme.
Has there been any assessment done about how many farms could be unprofitable after this comes in?
Obviously, every farm is different and every farm will have a business plan. So it’s up to each farmer looking at their business plan to decide if the SFS is part of that.
I don’t want to see any farmer go out of business. We need food, obviously, but you’ve got to think about the other aspects of our agricultural sector: the language, the cultural part, the rural communities.
I recognise that when a farmer gets their basic payment scheme, they don’t just keep it for themselves, they employ people. So during lambing or silage that money goes out into the rural community. We’ve done some modelling that shows that some farms would have to reduce their numbers of livestock. But again, looking at reducing emissions, if you’re not going to plant trees, what are you going to do to help with that? How are you going to make sure that you are part of the solution of reaching net zero?
Do you think after this fully comes into force there will be more, fewer or the same amount of agricultural jobs in Wales?
I would like to think that it will be the same. If you look at all parts of the economy, unfortunately, you recognise that sometimes that doesn’t happen. But I wouldn’t want it to be because of the scheme. It’s really important we get the scheme right.
When I asked farmers why they left the European Union, a lot of it was around bureaucracy. And I feel that if we make a scheme more complicated we would have failed. That’s why we’ve taken our time. We had our first consultation back in 2018. We’re in 2024 now.
Farmers are not a homogenous block, but is it frustrating that some people in rural areas of Wales voted to leave the EU?
It’s hugely frustrating. To me, they were lied to. I remember when I first came into the role genuinely wanting to know why the people in the farming sector wanted to leave the European Union because I couldn’t see any benefits.
I think they were lied to. I think they listened to those people more than the people who said ‘this is bad.’
The Conservative Party was saying ‘this will be great for British farming if we leave the European Union.’ That is untrue and it is frustrating.
People say ‘Well, look at European farmers, they’re protesting.’ Yes, they are protesting, but they’re protesting about different things. It’s about fear isn’t it?
Farming isn’t just a job that I do or you do. Farming is absolutely a way of life and I can see why they are so anxious, because they’re anxious about their lifestyle, their traditions, their way of life.
But equally, unfortunately, they do need to change in a way that perhaps the basic payment scheme hasn’t helped them be competitive.
A complaint that has been articulated a lot is that 10 per cent is ‘too catch-all’. So if somebody, for instance, farms on a cliffside which is very windy, or farming in a really productive part of Wales, or farming on a hillside in Powys, the realities of the scheme will be different. Can you explain the thinking behind the 10 per cent?
It is about getting net zero in 2050. NFU Cymru say that they think they can get to net zero by 2040. I’m really interested to know how they’re going to do it. Obviously, tree-planting targets are one part of us reaching net zero by 2050.
It is frustrating because it’s become the most controversial element of the proposals and there are so many other things going on around how we sequester our carbon. But I do understand.
So you’ve got farmers, as you say, in coastal regions, you go to Anglesey and they’ll point to areas of their farm and they’ll say ‘there’s no way we can plant trees there’. That’s why we need to hear from every farm and I still encourage every farmer to respond to the consultation, because it’s really important we hear about this so we can find solutions before the final design of the scheme.
So what we want to see is trees built into that farming system because if we’re going to reach our tree-planting target we need more trees and who’s best-placed to help us with that? It is our farmers.
Some accommodations have been made so tenant farmers won’t have
to hit the 10 per cent coverage, but that will also affect their baseline payments so they’ll get a lower universal baseline payment. NFU Cymru said that this wasn’t necessarily fair on tenant farmers, who will find it harder to diversify because they need to get permission from landowners. Do you think these are fair concerns?
Yes, I absolutely think they are fair concerns. We have had a specific tenant workshop helping us with the design of the scheme because a significant majority of farms I visit are tenanted and these concerns have been raised. So the consultations have changed as we’ve gone along because we’ve listened. This third consultation now is very different to the first.
This consultation won’t be the final design of the scheme. We’ll have to listen. We’ll have to find solutions to all the concerns that are being raised.
But I go back to what I say: we are in a new world. Unfortunately, leaving the European Union has forced our hand in this way to make a new scheme. But the climate and the natural emergencies have forced our hand to make sure we do it in a different way.
Somebody was just telling me there was a farmer in Litchfield who had been able to produce food, and now his farm is completely underwater and he can’t do it. That shows why you have to keep changing and adapting.
Do you think, when you do make any adjustments, that you might change the part about tenant farmers who don’t hit 10 per cent having a different universal baseline payment?
We certainly have to look at it and, obviously, officials have been going to all the roadshows. When we look at the consultation responses, if that’s a theme, then you’ve got to find solutions, haven’t you? Because, as I say, so much of our agricultural sector is tenanted. It’s not fair if you’re the tenant and your landlord won’t let you do something.