Nationalism, Brexit and t Labour deal... Sturgeon Joel Taylor and Sharon Lougher
We’ve just seen another terror attack in London; what are your thoughts?
Obviously, my thoughts are with everybody who was caught up in it, those who were injured but particularly families who are waking up this morning having lost loved ones. It’s just not possible to imagine the pain and grief they’re going through and will be going through for an awful long time.
We saw acts of quite exceptional individual bravery; when you’re confronted with the worst of humanity you are also seeing the absolute best of it and the emergency services always fill me with admiration. I think given some of the information that has emerged there’s clearly going to be issues to be discussed and confronted.
How long have we got? For Scotland, there have always been deep flaws in Westminster politics because it very rarely reflects what people in Scotland vote for but, with Brexit, we’ve just seen the complete collapse of Westminster democracy as we know it. We have this Brexit issue that has just paralysed the whole system. For Scotland, it poses the question of do we want to have our future determined by that, or do we want to choose something different and better.
You’ve said you admire Angela Merkel but, in today’s world, which other leaders do you admire?
I’m a huge admirer of Angela Merkel, I don’t share her politics on everything but, how she conducts herself, the resilience she shows and her stance on the refugee issue was exemplary. And I’m a big fan of Jacinda Ardern, the New Zealand prime minister. In terms of younger leaders who are really making their mark on the world stage, I definitely think she’s right up there.
In your manifesto, you talk about wanting to escape from Brexit but how do you achieve that from where we are?
First, we’ve got to stop Boris Johnson getting the majority that enables him to drive it through. The point we’re making is the trade negotiations that start then are likely to take years.
Won’t they just take 11 months?
There is no chance at all of that. Outside the Tory Party and the Brexit Party, you will not find anyone serious who says they can be done in 11 months.
We stop him getting a majority and hopefully get a majority in parliament that opens the door to another EU referendum that allows people the opportunity to reverse it. There’s no guarantee the UK would do that – as it happens, I think it would – but it could be that we get the same result as we got before, which is why I’m putting a lot of emphasis on also being able to take Scotland’s future into our own hands.
I know the polls are very close but it does seem the likelihood is a Boris Johnson government of some sort after the election. He has been categoric he won’t allow another independent referendum
I’m not about to start talking on the hypothesis of Boris Johnson winning a majority. Of course, it’s possible, but it is not an inevitable outcome because if you look at every Tory seat in Scotland the SNP is the main challenger. In Scotland alone, we’ve got the chance to deprive him of 13 MPs that would count towards that majority.
But if you’re not able to agree a second referendum with a Westminster government, would you host one without having permission?
I’ve always said a referendum should be legal and agreed, and that’s my position. But,
Right up there: Jacinda Adern and Angela Merkel equally, I’m not going to get into what ifs at the moment.
What’s the difference between the nationalism that drives the Scottish National Party and the nationalism that we’ve seen with Brexit?
They’re not just at different ends of the spectrum, they’re different beasts altogether. The campaign for Scottish independence is not based on a sense of identity, it’s based on wanting to build a better country and we see everybody who comes to live in Scotland who wants to make a contribution as being part of that. We’re the strongest voice in UK politics in favour of immigration. It’s not just what I stand for and represent and what the likes of Nigel Farage represents at different ends of the spectrum – we talk different languages and inhabit different planets.
In the face of a Brexit driven by Westminster, how do you push for an immigration policy more suited to Scotland?
There is scope for more flexibility now and it’s regrettable that UK governments have been unwilling to countenance that. But if we’re independent, then we get to decide exactly what kind of system we want. Scotland’s got a different requirement to elsewhere in the UK because our own population, without migration, will decline over the next 25 years. The implications are obvious.
What about tackling austerity, also big in your manifesto? What if you’re an SNP government up here with a Tory minority government in the south?
I wish Scotland wasn’t in a position of having to choose