It’s about winning the right to decide your own destiny
There’s no doubting Gordon Clark’s passion for independence - but his vision for Scotland if there’s a yes vote next Thursday is different from the one being presented by the Scottish Government’s White Paper.
Gordon, an SNP councillor for Rutherglen Central and North since 2007, was in good spirits when we met last Wednesday in Rutherglen.
The Yes campaign had narrowed No’s lead in the polls and it seemed the momentum was very much swinging their way.
In our 50-minute chat, he went on to reveal why a currency union wouldn’t be his choice, and why he still has concerns over NATO membership.
He describes suggestions Scotland would need a central bank to join the EU as “guff” and dismisses the extra powers being handed to Holyrood as part of the Scotland (2012) Act.
And the heart of his message was clear - Scotland must vote yes to secure a better future.
“The whole thing, I keep going back too, in the Yes campaign, it’s about winning the right for the people of Scotland to decide their own destiny. And that’s what the campaign is about.”
Gordon insists Yes will be leading in the polls by September 18, but even if they aren’t, he’s confident theyy will emerge triumphant (“I don’t think anyone is contemplating a no vote”) before we move onto the subjects at hand.
Although Alex Salmond still insists there would be a currency union, the prospect of sterlingisation has become a possible arrangement, Gordon reckons any use of the pound could only be temporary.
“Quite honestly it’s not my option,” he says.
“I’d like to see us have our own currency.
“I think in the long term I can see than happening but probably to smooth things over we’ll have either a currency union or sterlingisation but I can see in 20 years Scotland having its own currency.”
He concedes that a currency union might not be “real independence”, but adds: “It’s a good starting point.
“The whole movement towards independence has been transitional, it’s gone in stages. In my lifetime certainly it’s speeded up.
“It’s been stage by stage and I think that’s the best way to achieve things.
“The next step - we are in a union to start with or sterlingisation to keep things stable and move on to there. With a Yes vote it will be up to the people of Scotland what we do. People here, that’s what the Yes vote is all about.”
The night before our chat, the former EU commissioner for monetary union, Olli Rehn, insisted Scotland would not be able to join the EU without a central bank, but when this is put to him Gordon replies: “It’s just guff.
“Countries apply for membership, Scotland already is a member as part of the UK, that’s another argument again.
“Even if we have to reapply, there’s no way the EU would knock us back. We’re wealthy, we have got all the resources that countries need, compared with other countries from the EU. They’d welcome us with open arms.
“The biggest threat to staying in EU is an in/out referendum that the Tories No more Councillor Gordon Clark insists Faslane would not be home to Trident missiles in an independent Scotland (right) are proposing. If we came out of Europe, Britain would then need to renegotiate the trade situation.”
He also didn’t rule out the possibility of Scotland adopting the Euro at some point in the future.
“We won’t need to take on the Euro, there are plenty of countries who have joined recently who do not use the Euro. That’s just a scare story.
“In the long term, goodness knows what the future holds, it’s all crystal ball gazing.
“Who knows in 25 years time Europe might be a totally different place, Scotland might decide to join the Euro.”
Key to Scotland’s future prosperity will be keeping yyoungg talent here, he says y ( Gordon even puts the blame for a falling birth rate at the door of Westminster), and as the discussion turns to the NHS, he reveals his fears for the future.
“Britain is losing money hand over fist, and they know that they’ve got to cut expenditure, it’s got to be cuts, cuts, cuts.
“To my mind for the next 50- 60 years we’ve got this austerity because they’re just focussing on the wrong spending issues, wrong policies and chop and change, and I don’t see any improvement coming and for the next 50-60 years. There’s some really hard times if we stay in the UK, and because of that they’re looking at more ways of saving money - and it’ll be the rich and folk who can afford it, who will all go private and the health service will shrink.”
Claims that the SNP are guilty of privatisation by stealth of the NHS north of the border are dismissed as “partly for services that aren’t available on the NHS in Scotland.”
Gordon likens the current situation to giving your money to your neighbour and him giving you a bit back each week to live off, but keeping some extra back if he needs a new fence.
And he uses another analogy to dismiss concerns about oil.
“Of course oil is a good thing, if you found it in your back garden you wouldn’t say ‘oh, I don’t want that dirty stuff there, that could cost me money.’ It’s nonsense.”
Gordon acknowledges that Scotland’s future will continue to be linked with the rest of the UK even in the event of a yes vote, but there is one thing he won’t be moved on.
“I’m hoping that when the vote is over everyone will be sensible enough to come to some arrangement.
“The only thing with defence is I don’t want nuclear weapons here, I don’t know how long it might take to get rid of them, the arguments could go on, but I do not see anyone in Scotland on the Yes side - and there’s even folk on the No side who are anti-nuclear weapons - I just don’t see nuclear weapons being able to remain on Scottish soil.”
When it’s put to him that membership of NATO is de facto supporting nuclear weapons, he laughs: “Yes, but we’ve got to make a start getting rid of nuclear weapons.
“I don’t like the idea. I voted against the resolution at the SNP conference on becoming part of NATO. I think we could be affiliated with NATO without being a full member.
“Again, these are things that could change with decisions made in the Scottish Parliament.”
Looking towards the post-referendum landscape, Gordon reckons the vast majority of Scots will simply get on with their lives.
And he warned the independence movement would not end with a no vote.
“We’re of the firm belief it’s going to be a Yes, but whatever the vote is both sides will need to take stock of just what’s happened, but if it is a No vote, it’s not the end of an independence movement.
“That will continue because too many people see it as the only way Scotland will prosper.”
It’s been an interesting chat. Among other things, Gordon admits there’s been some scaremongering from both sides (“Everyone scaremongers to a certain extent during campaigns”) and insists he’s an internationalist rather than a nationalist.
Before we leave I put it to him that the debate may have opened a Pandora’s Box in terms of political involvement.
He replies: “Pandora’s Box is one thing, as long as everything gets out. The one thing left was hope, so we should open it from the bottom and let hope out first.”
A grand ambition, but it remains to be seen if it will sway voters.