Marcus has no obvious weakness, but I’ll tell my players ‘do NOT let him settle’
CLIVE WOODWARD:
Gregor, it’s great you could spare some time for a chat. It’s a treat for me to talk to a Test coach who was also an outside back. I have always thought backs see the game through a different prism! I always loved the way you played — do you remember that myself and Andy Robinson tried to sign you for Bath during my short time there in 1997?
GREGOR TOWNSEND:
My pleasure Clive and yes that was an interesting day. You and Andy looked after me very well. You were persuasive and it felt like Bath were the club for me but then Andy Nicol made a big mistake, he took me for lunch in town with Mike Catt, Phil de Glanville and Jerry Guscott.
All the talk was whether I was looking at 10 or 13 and I suddenly realised that perhaps not everybody was quite so keen for me to join as you and Andy! Later that afternoon I went on to Cardiff where Rob Howley and Gareth Edwards showed me around. I had a big decision to make but, in the end, I bottled it and Ian McGeechan persuaded me to stay at Northampton.
CW: Wow, I never knew about the lunch!
GT: You wrote me a letter when I turned down Bath which, for some reason I kept, probably because it felt like a big moment in my career. You told me Bath were going to be European champions — you weren’t wrong — and how I would blend into the team. In the end, neither of us were part of that European success. That’s sport.
CW: I hope the letter wasn’t rude!
GT: No, not at all, it was a very nice letter.
CW: Right, let’s talk about the Calcutta Cup. I’ve been doing my homework and by my calculations you played in 10 and won one...
GT: Thank you!
CW: Sorry, but I was on the receiving end of that ‘one’ — the one when we were going for a Grand Slam at Murrayfield in 2000. I found a Scottish website that seems to play that game on a loop and watched the match again. We actually played quite well in the first half but Scotland absolutely dumped us after the break. Any memories of that game?
GT: Yes, lots! The weather was truly awful in the second half. It had been dry in the first half, the game was very intense. Lawrence Dallaglio scored a try but there were loads of big shots going in and we felt we were doing well in defence. We had all the territory, when the weather turned and our pack took control.
It wasn’t a very enjoyable game for the outside backs. After the game myself, Chris Paterson and one or two other backs rushed into the hot showers and stood there with our full kit on for 10 minutes to revive ourselves. We were frozen!
CW: I was amazed at the number of high tackles — from both sides — and people launching themselves into rucks. It would have been down to seven-a-side after 70 minutes under the current laws.
GT: It was Jason White’s debut if I remember correctly and he had a very big game up front.
CW: That’s right. He made an amazing clearout to make the try for Duncan Hodge. We were big favourites that day Gregor and made a mess of it — and that dynamic always interests me. On paper, you could make Scotland favourites this time — one defeat against England in the last four games — but does any of that prematch banter and chat bother you?
GT: There is always a bit of dance that goes on before a game. Publicly, coaches always like to claim they are the underdogs and talk up the opposition. They are often honest, respectful comments but they are also trying to make sure there is no complacency in the camp and to provide an edge to the group. Privately, a coach must always ‘sell’ your chances of winning to pass on belief so there is that balance. For teams that win regularly, the expectation goes up but so does the risk of complacency.
CW: That’s right. We got it badly wrong in 2000. I knew all week that it wasn’t quite right. I was trying to fix it but I could smell the complacency. I learned from it and before the 2003 Grand Slam game with Ireland I went the other way and ramped it up, insisting we were red-hot favourites and that we might as well not turn up at the World Cup if we couldn’t beat Ireland who actually were a very good team that year. Let’s turn to Marcus Smith. Six Nations debut. Calcutta Cup at a packed Murrayfield. Finn Russell opposite him. This is another step up, isn’t it? What’s your take on him?
GT: Marcus has already shown that he can thrive in the big moments. He was involved in a lot of Harlequins last-minute wins and he thrived on tour with the Lions. He only got one game but we saw in training, when he was up against the best players in Britain and Ireland, what a player he is. In November, he helped England beat the world champions by kicking a late penalty. I suspect he will thrive in the most testing environment, he has that confidence.
‘We are full of optimism, the wins in France and England last year must provide belief’
CW: England will have their eyes on Finn Russell and trying to combat him. Will Scotland do the same with Smith? Most No 10s have targets on their backs don’t they?
GT: If a 10 has a weakness or a certain trait then you tend to concentrate on it and expose his weakness, but there is no obvious weakness with Marcus. If he sits deep and you rush out, he can pick you off with a short pass or a chipped kick. If you let him come to you, he has a running game to take you on. He is very good at teasing defenders on to him.
From our point of view, it’s more about making sure somebody like Marcus isn’t allowed to settle and to flow with the players around him. Don’t let him get into a rhythm, especially in the first 20 minutes.
CW: To watch two quality 10s, of your ilk, going head-to-head will be very exciting. Russell will surely see it as a challenge. This is his manor and a young gun from over the border will be trying to take him down.
GT: I love the way the role of the 10 is evolving again, Clive. Maybe five years ago, or even a year ago, if you asked a coach what you want from a 10 it would be managing a game, good kicking, good all-round skills but the priorities have shifted. Yes, those managing skills remain but now they also ask can he exploit
the space, can he run, what are his short kicking and passing abilities? It’s great to see.
CW: Does this current Scotland back division represent or reflect how you played the game, is it Gregor Townsend writ large? Wouldn’t you just love to cheat time for a day and enjoy a run out in that back division?
GT: Good question. There are two things to consider. First your love of the game and how you would like to see it played. And secondly, as a coach, the need to best use those players who are available. Fortunately, both now coincide or intermingle. I know one thing: their basic skills — catching, passing — are way ahead of anything I experienced as a player.
CW: You have built a much stronger squad than in previous years but can you ever be spoilt for choice in one position? I am thinking of Scotland at centre where you already have four terrific players in the squad and in-form guys like Matt Scott and Huw Jones who can’t even make the cut.
GT: I know what you are saying but no, it mainly means you have more conversations with those who miss out. As you say, really good players are not currently in the squad. That is difficult for them but, for Scotland, and for me as a coach, it’s a great situation.
It’s also very rare to have every single contender fully fit. The four in the squad as well as those who have just missed out. We’ll cross our fingers that it continues.
CW: Chris Harris is obviously one of that group. I have been so impressed with his development. He seems to have become the defensive leader and Mr Reliable in the back division, contrasting with some of the other major talents. He seems like another key man for you against England.
GT: Chris has become one of the best defensive centres in the world. As you know, it is difficult to defend at 13 when you have to have one eye on the midfield and one eye on the outside backs. His timing and reading of attacks and his impact in the tackle is exemplary but he is also a very good attacker. We first spotted Chris when he shone in attack for Newcastle one day against Saracens, scoring a couple of tries.
It was probably only a year later, when I knew his game better, that I realised this guy just doesn’t miss any tackles and has an incredible work rate. He brings out the best in those around him in a different way to Finn or Stuart Hogg.
CW: Changing tack a little Gregor, I loved my spell in Australia, while you played for many years in France, had a spell with Saints and spent time in Australia and South Africa. You seem more relaxed than some coaches about allowing key men to play outside of Scotland.
GT: I’m a bit of a contradiction on this one, Clive. Those spells away were brilliant for my career and got me out of my comfort zone. I learned from different coaches and players. I see the benefits but now, as a coach, I also see the benefits of having a cohesive unit at international level — you only need to look at Ireland who have a lot of the Leinster players playing and training together. It can make life much easier.
With one thing or another, we will have had four full squad sessions before this England game so it’s easier to coach if everybody is used to each other. But things can balance out. Stuart and Finn, for example, played for five years together at Glasgow before spreading their wings so there is an in-built cohesion there.
CW: What was your personal debrief from the 2019 World Cup? Were there any lightbulb moments for you, setbacks you had to experience to move forward?
GT: The key learning is always that you get better after failure. You don’t want to go through that failure at the time but it helps. Actually, it’s a privilege to go through that experience and then be given the opportunity to put things right.
CW: That is so true. After the World Cup you were getting some heat and one or two critics calling for your head which was absolutely ridiculous. Going back to that horrible night in 2000 when you beat us, I filled a notebook the next day with the lessons learnt and I changed my computer screen saver to a photo of a jubilant Andy Nicol as a daily reminder that this must never happen again — and it didn’t!
One of the things we love about the Six Nations is how a team can suddenly tap into a huge well of emotion and energy and conjure an unstoppable passage or period of play. The one I always remember with Scotland is when you went to Paris in 1999 and suddenly exploded out of the blocks and scored five tries in 20 minutes in the first half to blow the French away. How does that happen?
GT: What an easy job this coaching malarkey would be if I knew how to bottle that! We had a pretty settled team and backline at the time, we had built confidence and we had nothing much to lose. England were expected to close out the championship the next day against Wales at Wembley. What I do recall though is that we were totally in the zone during our last training session at Murrayfield before we flew to Paris.
No mistakes, no hesitancy, no dropped passes. Players don’t normally get excited about training sessions — coaches do, not players — but we were absolutely buzzing after that one.
In Paris, we got into that same flow for 20 to 30 minutes when everybody was confident, passes stuck, we didn’t change a thing or stop to think. That lasted until half-time and then disappeared. Fortunately we had enough points on the board to win.
If we could replicate that a couple of times this season I would be a very happy man. I can only remember it happening once since then and that was the second half at Twickenham in 2019 when we came back from 31-7 down at half-time to earn a draw.
CW: We had something similar against Ireland in 2003. It was a huge match but we were in the zone all week and won big against a very good Ireland team who were themselves going for the Slam.
You occasionally pick up on a vibe before battle commences and it’s a great feeling. Go with the flow, just play. The only flipside as a coach is that you can occasionally also sense, for whatever reason, that it is going wrong and that can be a bit scary when you feel out of control.
I think Scotland under you are back to the Scotland team I always loved — and feared. As a player and coach, I used to really dread away matches to Scotland — the fast-flowing, fluid, unpredictable sides. I know you will say you are not the finished article yet but how far can you go?
GT: We are full of optimism. Those two away wins against England and France last year should provide belief and kick us on this season. We are mindful though of just how strong European rugby is right now. In the coming weeks, we are playing two sides who have recently beaten New Zealand, an England team who defeated the world champions while Wales are the reigning champions.
CW: Agreed. I’ve been involved in the Championship much longer than you and this is without doubt the strongest group of teams I have ever seen. It’s so exciting. I’ve never known so much interest in the tournament.
All the nations are coming out of a very difficult couple of years. There is so much at stake and, as you know better than most Gregor, there will be one very happy coach in Edinburgh on Saturday night and one not so happy coach. Twas ever thus. It’s a very harsh arena. I wish you well and thanks again. You are a true gent.