CARWYN AT SARGEANT INQUEST
FIRST Minister Carwyn Jones told an inquest that Carl Sargeant did not give him an “outright denial” as he sacked him after “bombshell” sexual misconduct allegations.
Mr Jones, watched by Mr Sargeant’s widow, Bernadette, his son, Jack, and other family members on the third day of the inquest into his death yesterday, said after telling the then Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children he could no longer serve in his Cabinet, the “panicked” politician gave an “unusual” response.
Mr Jones sacked Mr Sargeant, 49, on November 3 last year, during a government reshuffle, after allegations surfaced of sexual misconduct.
Four days later the father of two was found by his wife hanged after an apparent suicide at his home in Connah’s Quay, Flintshire.
He had not been told who or exactly what he was accused of but he had denied the allegations to others.
The First Minister, who described Mr Sargeant as a friend, was questioned closely during the hearing at Ruthin County Hall about the meeting where he sacked Mr Sargeant and how it was handled.
He agreed the allegations and sacking would come as a “bombshell” to his Cabinet colleague.
Mr Jones said: “I sat him down. I said, ‘Look Carl, this is not going to be an easy conversation.’
“When I told him about the allegations, his response was unusual in a sense, that he did not recognise them.
“In politics, that’s not a denial. It’s not an outright denial. It was an unusual thing to say. He was not tearful. Panicked, but not distraught.”
The coroner asked the First Minister why he had not spoken to Mr Sargeant about the allegations.
Mr Jones said: “These allegations were becoming concrete. I had names, I had details, I had written statements. It would have been wholly inappropriate.”
The inquest heard an investigation was to be carried out by the Labour Party and Mr Sargeant was told not to “go public” as his sacking and the reasons for it would be “handled” by others.
Mr Jones said the “narrative” of the departure of Mr Sargeant was just to be that the AM was one of a number of ministers who had left in the reshuffle – he said there were no plans over the upcoming weekend to announce any reasons for the departures.
He said he advised the AM to keep his head down, and to seek legal advice from his union if he wanted to.
But the First Minister was left “f ****** furious”, the hearing has been told, that within hours of the meeting Mr Sargeant issued a tweet saying he had been sacked for inappropriate conduct and vowed to clear his name.
Mr Jones continued: “I thought it was unwise. Very unwise. What then happened was the focus became Carl, where Carl was saying he was being removed for his personal conduct, then for the weekend the media was full of it.”
John Gittins, Senior Coroner North Wales (East and Central), asked the politician: “He was being honest?”
Mr Jones replied: “But he was volunteering the information.”
Mr Gittins continued: “So that’s what happens in politics? We keep secrets because it suits everybody to do so?”
Mr Jones responded: “It’s not secrets. It’s a gentler way of doing it.”
He said “because of that tweet there was a media frenzy” which saw all kinds of allegations and speculations about Mr Sargeant “which were not true”.
He said by the Monday after the
reshuffle he thought it was important to make a statement to state exactly what the situation was and “remove the fuel from the wilder rumours”.
Mr Jones told the inquest that in 2014 he received an anonymous letter from a member of Mr Sargeant’s constituency saying the AM “was not fit to be around women”.
Mr Jones said he showed the letter to Mr Sargeant and said somebody was obviously watching him and he should be careful where he went, and how much he drank.
The First Minister said Mr Sargeant did sometimes drink a lot when he was out socially, that he “wasn’t an alcoholic” but that he kept company with a “hard-drinking bunch”.
He said in 2014 he was also concerned about Mr Sargeant staying the night in London and in Pembrokeshire after meetings, something that was not appropriate.
Mr Jones told the inquest that in 2017 he was looking at moving Mr Sargeant to the role of Leader of the House when he became aware of rumours about the AM – but he noted that “rumours are plentiful in politics”.
Mr Jones said the “catalyst” was being told in October 2017 that named women had come forward with complaints.
He said: “I was aware there were rumours. I was aware they had spoken to [special adviser] Matt [Greenough]. I was aware they had produced these written statements.”
The coroner asked Mr Jones why he had spoken to Mr Sargeant about the rumours in 2014 but not in 2017.
Mr Jones says there were different circumstances. In 2014 there had been an anonymous letter with no chance of anything further happening, in 2017 there had been complaints from named people.
The First Minister said if he had told Mr Sargeant the details of the allegations, the AM would immediately have realised who the complainants were. He added that the anonymity of the people who had come forward was vital.
Mr Jones said when he became aware that a written complaint about Mr Sargeant – via email – had been received on November 1, he decided that he could no longer continue in Cabinet. He said the second written complaint was received on November 2.
The inquest heard audio of Mr Jones speaking on a BBC Wales news broadcast on November 6, the day before Mr Sargeant died.
In it, Mr Jones used the words “incidents”. The coroner asked him if he saw the difference between that and the word “allegations”.
He replied no, saying: “It’s quite clear from that news report that the news report is about allegations.”
Mr Jones said Mr Sargeant accepted he had to be suspended, the Labour whip withdrawn and he had to leave government.
He suggested any “pastoral” care for Mr Sargeant after the “great shock” of his sacking and losing his cabinet job would be handled by a member of Welsh Government staff.
Mr Jones said he did not know until after Mr Sargeant’s death that he suffered from depression, although he was aware of a traumatic life event he had experienced.
He said: “I had no indication that he had any kind of problem with his mental health. He was somebody who was chirpy.”
He was asked by the coroner whether there had been any changes in terms of the support offered to ministers who lost their roles since Mr Sargeant’s death.
He said: “The difficulty is this – the answer to the question is no – formally there is no employment relationship between the Welsh Government and ministers.”
Mr Jones described politics as a “brutal business” and said it demanded “a certain level of resilience”.
The inquest heard that Labour AM Ann Jones was given the job of providing “pastoral care” to Mr Sargeant after his departure from the cabinet – the First Minister said it was standard practice to ask somebody to perform such a role.