‘I’ve got no doubt that overall the culture within Gwent is good’
Here, the Echo challenges the man whose job is to make Gwent Police accountable after a string of horrific scandals
REPEATED scandals have shed a light on allegations that a toxic culture has flourished among at least some Gwent Police officers over many years. The man whose role was created to make the force accountable to the public and ensure it meets the standards people would expect is Police and Crime Commissioner Jeff Cuthbert.
Mr Cuthbert, a former Labour MS for Caerphilly, was elected to the role in 2016. The brief is to be “the voice of the people and to hold the police to account”.
During his time in charge, the force has had to apologise after one of their officers abused women. Senior officers left the force after being found to have groped a woman and covered up evidence. And more recently an external investigation has been launched into “abhorrent content” shared by Gwent Police officers that was found on an officer’s phone after his death.
Given the string of issues faced by the force, Welsh Affairs Editor Will Hayward sat down with Mr Cuthbert to see how the force got into this mess and what he was doing to ensure it meets the standards the public would expect.
Will Hayward: What do you think the culture of Gwent Police is?
Jeff Cuthbert:
I appreciate that this has been clouded by the events since the Sunday Times article and that’s really put everything into sharp focus. But I’ve got absolutely no doubt that overall the culture within Gwent is good. I know that there are, in terms of training of officers, particularly new officers, that the code of ethics is really pressed hard. And there are a number of initiatives that Gwent police house to actually help tackle the issues of misogyny and racism. So whilst we have these cases, most of which are historic in nature – not all, I accept that, but most of them are historic in nature, and they relate to individuals, as far as we can tell, rather than any collective concern.
WH: These revelations that have come out in the Sunday Times are abhorrent, but this can’t have come as a surprise to you, given the past few years with the case around Clarke Joslyn and the recent case of Budden and Warrender. How can this have come as a surprise given the last six years of the force being in the news for all the wrong reasons?
JC:
Those issues have been dealt with, particularly the case of Clarke Joslyn, which was some years ago and apologies were issued. There’s been work done with women’s centres to try and see how these issues can be corrected going forward. So, we don’t hide any of those things. We want to make it clear. And, as you alluded to, two senior officers have recently been dismissed for, shall we say, related matters. I am not able to go into those details. I also need to make it clear that as commissioner, I have no role in the issue of this WhatsApp group. That is an operational matter and the responsibility of the chief constable to investigate it together with Wiltshire Police. But, depending upon the outcome of that investigation, then I may have a formal role to play. I am limited in what I’m able to say, except that I am in close contact with the chief constable and I have confidence in her to get to the bottom of all this and to deal with it, because she is personally committed to resolving these matters and taking Gwent Police forward.
WH: You mention apologies were made to some of the women involved. But it took years of legal proceedings for them to get those apologies. They had to be dragged out of the force.
JC:
That was some time ago, and lessons have been learned from that occasion. We can’t undo it, but we can learn from it, and one of the things that we do instil in all current serving officers now is the requirement to make sure that when they come across instances of behaviour like this, that they have a duty to report it back either through their senior officer or indeed directly to the chief constable. And whilst you can never completely control what people do in their private lives, we do make it very clear that whether an officer is on duty or off duty, their standards of behaviour will be noted, and where it’s necessary, appropriate action taken.
WH: You say that people should report stuff to senior officers, but one of the
issues that has been seen in the past is that people have felt that if they do report stuff to senior officers, that might actually mean that their card gets marked. It can affect their promotion opportunities. Warrender, who was found to have groped a woman, for instance, was head of standards in the force for some time. Are you confident that if someone was to report issues now, that it would not go against them?
JC:
Yes, I am. And that is an assurance that I’ve had from the chief constable. I do have the responsibility as commissioner to hold the chief constable to account for a range of issues and the issues of professional standards, which, again, I’ve got confidence that our professional standards department are alert to these matters and there will be all serious consideration given to the reporting of these matters. We have a whistleblowing policy now that should guarantee the rights of people who want to bring to our attention these matters and if there is any evidence that, as you say, their card is marked, then we will want to deal with it.
WH: You have been in the post for six years and obviously a key part of your role is to essentially be the public’s representative and to make sure everything’s above board in the force. Given the things that have come out over the past six years, what have you personally done? What can you point to and say, ‘This is the difference I’ve made?’ in terms of ethics and culture within the force?
JC:
We’ve worked hard with the force to make sure that there are policies in place; for example, I mentioned about whistle-blowers. We’ve worked together with other police forces in Wales to develop the violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence policy that’s been taken up by the Welsh Government.
For example, we have the development of the criminal justice, anti-racism plan, all of which impact upon all four Welsh forces, not just here in Gwent. I’m quite assured that we do have a very firm understanding about the levels of expectation that the public of Gwent can expect from police officers. We have a regular series of scrutiny events with the chief constable. I meet her on a weekly basis, we’ll talk about matters like this and other ongoing key issues. And then I have strategic bodies that can meet in public. And, of course, there’s the police and crime panel, that challenge and support the work of my office.
WH: Let’s just go back to that question, but in terms of specifics. What would have been different if it hadn’t been Jeff Cuthbert sitting in that seat as PCC? What specifically have you done to make a significant difference to the force?
JC:
Well, we’ve launched a campaign which we agitated for called Step In, Step Up and set the tone. It’s really to establish what types of behaviours are not acceptable from police officers. That’s a specific point. We also have the He For She campaign, which is really to tackle this issues around misogyny.
I’m quite content we have made a difference in matters that we’re talking about now in terms of the force and, whilst these issues that have come up now – and I mentioned, most of them are historic in nature, including the one with a WhatsApp which followed the death of the officer a number of years ago – that things are moving forward. The appointment of Pam Kelly, in 2019, by me, part of that reason was because of her, let’s say, progressive attitude towards the type of personal relationships and attitudes that I wanted to see to come in to Gwent Police.
WH: It’s hard to measure culture – it is not a quantifiable thing in lots of ways, is it? It’s a hard thing to measure. Other than assurances from Pam Kelly, what measures have you got to show that the culture in the force has changed? Because I imagine if you spoke to any Gwent Police constable over the past 20 years, they’d say the culture was good. Other than Pam Kelly’s reassurances, what have you seen that makes you think that the culture is not what it has been?
JC:
Let me just give an example. I meet new trainee officers when their training begins on a regular basis. Part of their training is very much about showing empathy with the people that we’re dealing with and the issues of respect for everybody, and community cohesion, which is about ensuring all communities in Gwent are treated equally and will get their proper allocation of police resources. Those are key issues, and you’ll see those within our police and crime plan. The plan does address these issues.
WH: It’s all very well training new officers and imposing really good values on them, but it’s the environment they go into, isn’t it, that shapes a lot of their culture? Especially if it’s their first role in policing. With the exception of the officers who were sacked recently, have any other officers or senior leaders within the force gone because they didn’t fit the new culture?
JC:
We have said goodbye to officers. I’m not going to go into any specifics on this. Take this in the right spirit – it won’t be the last, because where we get issues of people that have not behaved to an acceptable standard, there could well be departures.
New officers are coming in and there is a vetting process with the right attitude. And I know that the events over the last few days have really embarrassed and concerned new officers and indeed longer term officers that they could well be tarred with the same brush. I’ve heard it said that it’s not a question of a few rotten apples, that it’s the whole orchard, which I think is very negative and destructive and unfair, because the great majority of officers continue to do their work well, even at a time like this.
I’m confident that these very poor situations, totally unacceptable situations, are not the norm and we will show that it’s not the norm, but for those serving officers that are clearly implicated in WhatsApp groups will be dealt with. And I’ll be watching that. But I’m absolutely sure that Pam Kelly as chief is committed to weeding out that and to dealing with it.
WH: Pam Kelly herself has acknowledged that there were issues previously, but she also said that there’s there have been regular ‘temperature checks’, and that she is now confident that the culture in the force is where it needs to be. If, in a year’s time, we’re having a similar conversation about stuff, – not historic, recent things – do you think her position would be untenable if this stuff was to keep coming out like this?
JC:
I am not going to speculate on what might or might not happen in the future. Quite frankly, we would have to look at it in the round and obviously Pam Kelly and I will keep in close contact on these matters.
WH: What is your message to the public about what is going on in Gwent Police now after six years of your scrutiny?
JC:
My message to people in Gwent is that whilst we regret that all this is happening, we’re sorry that they’ve happened at all.
We also recognise that police officers are members of society, and some of them will have prejudice and unacceptable views. But where we can identify that we hold them to higher standards, and we will continue to hold them to higher standards, even though that involves greater scrutiny. And where members of the public feel that there is something that’s not right, then they are perfectly free and encouraged to come to the chief constable or to come to me, and I will make sure that the messages are passed on.