Nancy Pelosi
The Rolling Stone Interview with the Speaker of the House
It was a bone-cold january day in the nation’s capital. The federal government — finally back in business after the longest shutdown in American history — opened three hours late due to a dusting of snow and a “flash freeze” in the forecast. Not that it mattered to anyone who worked inside the speaker’s office. Nancy Pelosi was there at her usual time, and her aides were expected to be there too. There was work to do: committees to finish assigning, a postponed State of the Union to organize, and less than three weeks to hammer out a deal with the White House on border security before funding was set to run out again. ¶ Pelosi is at the height of her power, having recaptured the House, dispatched an attempted coup of her leadership, and faced down the president in a very public, extremely high-stakes fight. Her approval rating has risen eight points since November, and now sits higher than it has been in more than a decade. ¶ Nancy Pelosi has waited a long time for this. Born 78 years ago, she was the youngest of Baltimore Mayor Thomas D’Alesandro Jr.’s seven children, and the only girl. While her elder brother was groomed to follow in their father’s footsteps, Pelosi got married, moved to San Francisco, and raised five children before she seriously considered a run for office. When she arrived in Congress, after winning a special election in 1987, women made up just five percent of the House of
Representatives. Pelosi served for two decades before she was elected the first female speaker of the House, in 2007, the highest-ranking woman in the U.S. government, and second in line to the presidency.
She welcomed Rolling Stone staff writer Tessa Stuart and the magazine’s founder, Jann S. Wenner, into the speaker’s office, where there are frescoes on the ceiling, oil paintings of the San Francisco Bay and California coastline, and an expansive view of the Washington Monument. She wore a long, thin gold pin, with a tiny eagle perched on top. It was a mace: the ancient Roman symbol of power. Technically, it’s a bludgeon — the person who wields the bludgeon holds the power. After retreating from a 35-day standoff with her over funding for his border wall, President Trump seemed well aware who wielded the bludgeon in their relationship, at least for the moment. Wenner had come to the interview with a gift: a box of fancy chocolates. (Pelosi is well-known for her love of chocolate.)
Nancy Pelosi: Oh, my goodness. Maison du Chocolat. This is the real thing. Thank you so much. Should we start?
ROLLING STONE: Yeah, let’s start, because you’re busy.
No, I meant start with the chocolate.
Of course. Life has changed. ROLLING STONE interviews used to start with pot. . . . Now it’s chocolate.
Isn’t that true.
So what do you think your chief purpose is now, in this era of divided government?
The wisdom of our founders was that we would have co-equal branches of government. I think in a large sense, my responsibility now — and it seems to be having an impact — is to impress upon the other branches of government, the executive and the judiciary, the role of the legislative branch. That means to not only pass laws — the Constitution gives us the power of the purse, it gives us the responsibility for oversight, and we will exercise that power. And if we don’t, we would be delinquent in our duties. As speaker of the House, I see my responsibility to honor the Constitution — separation of powers as a co-equal branch of government.
Would you say respect for the concept of co-equal branches of government has been in decline in the past decade or two?
Mostly since this president. President Obama recognized the role of Congress. Right now, we see some Republicans — [Senate Majority Leader] Mitch McConnell for one — complicit in this president usurping the power of the Congress by saying, “If he doesn’t sign it, we won’t pass it.” Well, that’s not the way the balance works. We put forth legislation for the good of the people, and we send it to the president. If he doesn’t sign, you try to override it.
What is your relationship with McConnell like these days?
I’ve worked with him over the years as a member of the Appropriations Committee, back when I was still on committees. I have a respectful relationship with him. I have been disappointed that he was willing to have the government shut down because he wouldn’t face down the president on the president’s bad policy. That’s discouraging for the leader in the United States Senate. Does he take an oath to the president? No. He takes an oath to protect the Constitution.
Do you think there’s anything the president would do that would cause McConnell to break with him? Another government shutdown, or if he declares a national emergency, or a damning report from [Special Counsel Robert] Mueller?
I’m starting a new club. It’s called the Too Hot to Handle Club. The reason the government is open now is because we did make a shutdown too hot to handle. Finally Mitch was feeling the heat, which he conveyed to the president, and here we are with open government, able now to negotiate on how to protect our borders.
Public opinion is everything. Lincoln said: Public sentiment is everything. With it, you can accomplish almost everything; without it, almost and practically nothing. I’m paraphrasing, but nothing is more powerful than the stories of the people affected. You can roll out statistics and timetables, but the consequences — the emotional connection to the rest of the public — is what really weighed in.
Would they back him if he tried to declare a phony national emergency at the border?
The national emergency has its critics on the Republican side. If [Trump] does it, then the next president — whom, we predict, will be a Democrat — can also do it, and they don’t want to establish a precedent that a president can do this, because that really totally usurps the power of the government.
A damning report from Mueller — would that lead us toward impeachment?
You want to remember that President Nixon was not impeached. The Republicans went to him when they saw [the evidence]. The House proceeded with the hearings, but they never impeached because of information that came out that made it clear that they shouldn’t put the country through this process. It’s a very disruptive process to put the country through, and it’s an opportunity cost in terms of time and resources. You don’t want to go down that path unless it is unavoidable.
We have no idea — nor should we — what Mueller may have, if it involves the president or his campaign. I don’t know how bad it would have to be for them to do something, but the Republicans in Congress have ignored a great deal. You have a Cabinet that is a partially “acting Cabinet” because people have left in disgrace or dismay. You have a White House which is a fact-free zone. They have no interest in evidence, data, science or truth when it comes to making decisions.
You would think that there would be some check, but remember this about the Republicans in Congress: There is nothing that President Trump advocates for as president that our Republican colleagues in the House haven’t been [doing] there longer and worse. Name any subject. Name a woman’s right to choose. Name climate. Name LGBTQ discrimination issues. Name gun safety. Name immigration policy. Name fairness in our economy. He’s terrible. They’ve been there longer, and more so, he’s their guy.
Don’t you think he’s worse on immigration?
Look, Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush were great on immigration. The president I quoted most in the campaign was Reagan. Reagan said, “We must recognize that the vital force for America’s pre-eminence in the world is every generation of new immigrants who comes to our shores, and when America fails to recognize that, we will fail to be pre-eminent in the world.” Reagan, Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama — all excellent on immigration. George W. Bush couldn’t convince his party because they were just never going to be there. This president comes in, and he’s worse. On this, I have to say, they’re bad on the policy, he’s terrible on the policy, and the people and the way he describes them, he’s so disrespectful and discriminatory.
As the Republican Party has gotten more racist and undemocratic, how does that change how you think about working to find compromise? You’ve said America is experiencing a “schism of the soul.”
That’s Toynbee. I also quote St. Augustine — I’m a very devout Catholic — St. Augustine, 17 centuries ago, said, “Any government that is not formed to promote justice is just a bunch of thieves.” Seventeen hundred years ago. The Republicans are anti-science. They are anti-governance. They don’t have to do anything! They don’t have to do anything about climate, which is the challenge of this generation. They don’t have to do anything about meeting the needs of people because they don’t even care to hear
I was an organizer, not a fundraiser. I had to raise money to keep the doors open so we could march in the streets.
what the needs of the people are. The list goes on. I promised we would have an open Congress, that we would try to start out with the issues where we can find common ground. We have a responsibility to find common ground — if we can’t, to stand our ground. We talked about infrastructure from Day One.
What’s your dynamic with Trump like, personally and politically?
How can I say this? I’m respectful of the office that he holds. I see every challenge as an opportunity, and I pray for him and I pray for the United States of America.
You said the wall is “like a manhood thing with him.” Were you purposely trying to get under his skin?
I was saying it in a private meeting, and of course it went right out of the room. Boom. It was out the door before I even walked out myself.
What do you think makes him tick?
Does he tick? Why are we assuming? “Tick” has a certain predictability to it.
How do you negotiate with someone like that — when there’s no agreed-upon standards of truth or fact or morality or precedents or ethics? He completely can pull anything on you. How do you deal with that?
I’ll take you to my first meeting with the president, as president. It’s the first meeting with the House and Senate Democratic and Republican leadership — like eight people and then him. This is historic. I’ve been there as leader, and I’ve been there as speaker. Article One meeting Article Two of the Constitution. We would have normally been in a Cabinet Room, but he wanted to do this in the East Wing for some reason, so we could have snacks or something. It was weird. But anyway, so we’re in this meeting, and I’m thinking, “How will he begin this historic meeting? Will he quote the Bible? Will he quote the Constitution or any of our founders? Will he tell a personal story of his family, and what this means?”
[ Hunches over, scowls, glances sideways] “You know I won the popular vote?”
What?! That was shocking. And then he said — I’m getting to your point, you’ll see why — “Because 3 to 5 million people voted illegally.” There’s a protocol to these meetings: The president speaks, he makes his spiel or whatever, and then the speaker speaks, and then the majority leader, and then the minority leader in the House, and the Senate. I’m looking around, and I’m thinking, “Chuck Schumer has never been to this meeting before. Paul Ryan’s never been to this meeting before. Donald Trump has never been to this meeting before.”
You’re the only one?
And Mitch McConnell — who rarely speaks — so I thought, “They don’t know the protocol.” “Mr. President, that is not true,” I say. “That is not true. What you are saying has no evidence, no data, no truth, no fact to it.” He doesn’t realize he’s supposed to be making some kind of an opening statement about America and “These are our priorities” and “Let’s see how we can work together,” but he didn’t go there. And I didn’t go there. If he’s not going to respect his office, why should I? So when I say, “That’s not true.” He says — a good comeback, I have to give him credit — “I’m not even counting California.”
I said, “The reason I’m saying what I’m saying to you is the following: If we are going to work together, you have to stipulate to a fact — whether it’s a dollar number that is your budget, or a time frame — you have to stipulate. You can’t negotiate unless you have a starting point, and you have to agree on what that is to a fact. And if you’re not going to do that, it’s impossible to come to any agreement. Isn’t that right, my colleagues?” Because they know. They would never go into a negotiation unless you say, “What’s our bottom line?” So I said, “I thought that this conversation might take us to what our needs are for infrastructure, because you’ve always talked about that. . . .” He said, “Infrastructure. Infrastructure! Yeah, infrastructure, I have a plan right here.” [ Picks up the lining of the chocolate box, and waves it around] It wasn’t the lining of a candy box, but it could have been a napkin or something. “I have the plan right here. It’s a trillion-dollar plan, and we can pass it right away. Right, Mitch?”
Mitch says, “Not unless it’s paid for.” That was the end of that.
It puts you in an interesting position because you’re having to anticipate things that were unthinkable in the past. For example, you’ve mentioned that there was a plan in case he declared the 2018 midterm results illegal. What was the plan?
Well, I’m not going to divulge it, because we may still use it. But we were ready. We’ve been ready for a number of things. We’ve been ready for over one year if he were to fire Mueller, and we’ve been ready if he would fire [Deputy Attorney General Rod] Rosenstein. We had rallies on the ground. We had scores of bipartisan or nonpartisan leaders around the country to say, “That’s a constitutional crisis.” We are always ready for what he might do, and I think our readiness kept him at bay.
Do you have a plan for 2020, if he declares the election illegitimate?
You just have to win big. When the women marched, that made such a big difference. He gets inaugurated — one of the most disgraceful inaugural addresses ever, with no competition whatsoever for that title — then the next day the women marched. The women marched! Oh, my God. It made such a difference. It wasn’t political. We didn’t organize it. It was spontaneous. It was organic, and women spoke and they saw the value of their presence. And we saw, right after that, the Muslim bans at the airports. [The administration] couldn’t achieve what they set
consumer protections. Almost every day they do something very destructive, but you don’t want to be a fearmonger. You have to kind of just keep the fight where it needs to be and win the elections, because they have ramifications.
One more complicated legislative agenda is the need to deal with the tech giants. All the privacy violations are pretty staggering — and then they are behaving like classic monopolies, which we’ve seen throughout history, and which requires a legislative solution, no?
The more people know about how some of the businesses are conducted, I think the stronger the case is for how we go forward. And again, you have to handle it in the most strategic way, so you succeed. This is not a question of making headlines back home — it’s a question of making a statute to make a difference. But some of the things that were made known about Facebook in the past couple of weeks are very stunning, in terms of exploiting children’s access to Facebook, using their parents’ credit cards. The monopoly issue is something we have to look into because it’s so related to privacy. You can’t really separate them out.
I think we’ll have more hearings. Some of these firms are responsible, some are exploitive. And I don’t know how you make a judgment — whether it’s the size of the company, or the vertical or horizontal expansion of their control of the system. I don’t want to go into it right now with names, but some of them are much better than others. So we have to do it with care.
This is what the majority is about: to have the hearings, to get the data, to make the judgment. Otherwise, you have a hearing that’s a grandstand, and it never leads to anything. On privacy, just know that we will have legislation.
We have to ask as part of our official duties: What is your favorite music of all time? And what are you listening to these days?
Usually, I like to leave my kids’ music alone, you know? And now my grandchildren. But we have three generations of U2 fans. We’re obsessed. We go to every concert. I’ve probably been to more U2 concerts than, well, certainly anybody in Congress.
I love all the music. I saw the Bruce Springsteen show on Broadway; that was great. I loved that. I loved that. I love all music from rap to — I won’t say Wagner, but I’ll say Beethoven. I mean, I like Wagner, but there are other, easier things that I like. More Italian, shall we say? Even though Beethoven wasn’t Italian.
Can we be more specific? What’s your favorite album?
I hate to say this, because it sounds not as relaxed as it should. I love some of the songs better than others, but “One” is so appropriate now. Read the words to “One.” In fact, my daughter just sent them to me over the phone.
There’s not like a “Deadhead” thing for U2 — there’s not a name for U2 fans.
Deadheads are like family to us. No, I’m telling you, in California, that’s like family to us. And actually, [Dead & Company] was planning a concert the night of our swearing-in. Idina Menzel was coming, too, and they were going to play this thing together. But since the government shut down, we had to can- cel the concert, so that was too bad. We lost a lot of money.
Beatles, Stones, Dylan? Where are you on the three greats of the Sixties and the Seventies?
I probably know the words to more Beatles songs, if that means anything. I love Dylan, and I love the Stones. I’ve been to many of their concerts. I was at one concert in Argentina. I was down there for a security visit. On the street, they had the banners: the rolling stones with bob dylan. Oh, my God! We had to go, right? So we had to rearrange everything. And we go, and there is Bob Dylan singing “Like a Rolling Stone”! It was just incredible. And at that concert — this is having nothing to do with anything — [Rep.] Nita Lowey, who’s [Appropriations] chair now, she’d never been to a concert. I said, “Look, Nita. We’re concertgoers. You may smell things you don’t recognize, but we are concertgoers. If you go, you have to stay.”
Through the last song.
So we go there, and I’m telling you, Argentina — the mosh pit must have been 50,000 people. They just turn out, right? Now it’s the Stones and Bob Dylan. This guy comes up to Nita, who’s sitting on the end, at her first-ever concert, and he says to her, “Miss, make a contribution to fight HIV/AIDS, and then you get this gift.” And the gift was a pack of condoms. And she’s like, “What? What?”
“Never mind, just put it in your purse.”
Of all people, 80,000 people in the place, they pick her to go give a pack of condoms to, at her first concert ever.
As you’re looking toward the next two to four years, what is one thing you feel you need to get done before you retire?
The Affordable Care Act, to grow it and expand it, and increase the number of people who are covered by it. The climate thing is a big deal for me. It is. But, here’s the thing: We have some overarching challenges to our economy, and therefore our society. The disparity in income in our country is an obscenity. And I’ve said to the members, “Everything that we put forth has to be in furtherance of reducing that disparity.” Whether we’re talking about tax policy, whether we’re talking about investments in education and workforce development, whether we’re talking about infrastructure and how we do it in a way that increases paychecks, or how we do our oversight. We don’t begrudge anybody their success or their wealth. We just don’t like exploitation of the worker.
And we’ve had this conversation a number of times. Forty years ago, the disparity between income was maybe 40 times, [between] the CEO and the worker. When productivity increased, everybody’s pay went up. About 20 years ago, that all changed: bottom line, quarterly reports. So now the disparity is more like 350 to 400 times. CEO pay goes up because he’s cut costs by either firing people or they’re not paying them very much. This is sinful, this is sinful. So for me, how we get onto a path of addressing that has to be a very important part of this next Congress.
The only way our economy is going to be really strong is if you have increased purchasing power of the middle class. It’s not about giving tax breaks to the wealthiest people in our country. That wasn’t supposed to happen. The [Republicans] told us that wasn’t going to happen: “Oh, we just want to change the corporate tax — we’re not changing anything with individuals.” And then they did it in the dark of night — 83 percent of the benefits to the top one percent. It is shameful what they’re doing to the national debt, to enrich people. I mean, again, we don’t resent people their success and their wealth, but then they say, “Well, now we have to cover it by cutting Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security and the rest of that, because we have this national debt”?
The budget should be a statement of our values. And I look forward to putting us on that course. Then before you know it — 18 more months or so, 19, is it? — we’ll have a new president. And we can accomplish some of that. But you have to be ready. And you have to build the case. I call it “crescendo,” to use a musical metaphor. You’re always building, building, building. Building the knowledge, building the public awareness, building the strategy, as you keep revamping it in new circumstances, so that we can win.
As you look back on your legacy in the House, and at your career, do you have any regrets?
Regrets? I don’t know if I have any regrets.
I’ve become a target of the Republicans because I’m effective. And because I can out-raise them, outsmart them politically and out-negotiate them and the rest. And they know that, and they had to take me down. My name was in 132,000 ads paid for by the Republicans in the last election. Some people said, “Oh, you should have had your own PR campaign.” Well, I couldn’t even think of doing that. I spent every dollar to elect the Democrats. I don’t know, I don’t call that a regret. Regret? Do I have any regrets, Drew? Have I ever mentioned regret?
Drew Hammill: No.
Pelosi: We don’t deal in regrets. What we deal with is, every situation is an opportunity, including the guy down the street [ points behind her head toward the White House]. How do we use this to spring into something better? And quite frankly, he’s been a real asset. Terrible for the country, but a great organizer.
You mentioned all of the commercials that were run about you in the last election—
Yeah, 132,000.
In the past, when you’ve been asked about those kinds of commercials, you’ve brushed it off and said, “I’m not worried about my own approval, I’m worried about electing more Democrats.”
That’s right.
But does it feel good to finally be getting some approval? Do you get to enjoy it?
Well, it feels good. I accept all the compliments on behalf of the unity of my caucus. As I say to them, and maybe I said it earlier, forgive me, “Our diversity is our strength, our unity is our power.” I always remember Mario Cuomo saying this to me when he became governor [of New York]. I knew him through the Italian community. I said, “How’s it feel to be governor?” He said, “I feel like the Thanksgiving turkey. They bring you out on the tray and everybody oohs and ahs, and then they begin to carve you up.”
So, who knows what’s next? But for the moment, we want to do what we can to protect the workers, 800,000 families deprived of a paycheck [in the shutdown]. We want to do what we have to do to protect our DREAMers and the Temporary Protective Status folks, and end this conversation about who’s sincere about protecting the border, so people can see the other work that we are doing, which is addressing their kitchen-table issues. It’s all about that kitchen table. And now our caucus looks like America — 60 percent of it women, people of color, LGBTQ. Isn’t that a fabulous thing?