Phoebe Bridgers & Lars Ulrich
2020’s poet laureate of hushed heartbreak explores her metal side. ‘It’s one of those influences that isn’t very obvious,’ she says
Phoebe bridgers was in grade school in Pasadena, California, when she heard Metallica’s music in the PlayStation 2 game Test Drive: Off-Road Wide Open. “I was a kid in the early 2000s, so it was kind of a gift when a band that you just got into has an entire catalog already,” says Bridgers, 26. “You get to go back and listen to everything.”
Though Bridgers has credited artists like Elliott Smith and Tom Waits as influencing her witty, deeply emotional folk-rock sound, she’s been less vocal about her fandom for Metallica; she’s the kind of fan who can make an impassioned case for 2003’s St. Anger. “I think of Metallica as being a pop band,” she says. “A lot of metal is just metal to be metal — but Metallica write real songs.” Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich, 56, was excited when Bridgers reached out for a conversation, delving into her catalog, even her previous bands Einstein’s Dirty Secret and Sloppy Jane. The talk flows so easily, in fact, that nearly two hours had passed when Ulrich finally looks at the clock. “I could sit here and talk all day,” he says. “This is supercomfortable.”
BRIDGERS You have great fans, but you also have fans that are pretty entitled and have ownership over you and are like, “These are the real Metallica records.” What do you make of that?
ULRICH The difference now, compared to back in the day, is that everybody’s got an opinion. In the mid-to-late Nineties, it was like, “We played a show four days ago in Bumfuck, Somewhere, and the set list is posted online. The whole Napster thing 20 years ago, when we woke up in the middle of that shitstorm, was the first time where we were not universally the good guy. That’s when I conditioned myself to stop paying attention [to online commentary].
BRIDGERS The Napster thing is so interesting to me because we’re sitting in 2020 and somebody who doesn’t play music at all is making all the money on streaming. Now it’s legal to steal records.
ULRICH It was the strangest fucking summer. Because I was most on the front lines, it left me kind of shell-shocked. It really started more as a street fight. It was like, “Wait a minute, one of our songs is playing on a bunch of radio stations in the Midwest?” It was a song we hadn’t released yet. So we started tracing it back, and it was like, “Napster, what the fuck?” The environment we were brought up in was if somebody fucked with you, we’d just go after them. And then all of a sudden the lights came on, the whole world was watching.
It left certainly a pretty crazy taste in my mouth, especially because everybody was my friend: “You’re doing such a great job. We support you. What can I do to help you? Call me.” And then, as soon as I was out there and I looked behind, there was not a single person behind me. Obviously, I had the support of the band, but it was really weird. How do you view social media and how do you use it to get your shit out there and to communicate with your fans?
BRIDGERS I always end up on the devil’sadvocate side of social media. Maybe it’s just that
I have a lot of older friends who think it’s stupid, and I feel like I end up just being like, “But look, this kid made up a dance to one of my songs.” Does Metallica have TikTok dances?
ULRICH There’s definitely some out there.
BRIDGERS I think that’s great. . . . Do you have superfans who’ve come to so many shows that you know them on a first-name basis now?
ULRICH Oh, yes. We actually came up with this idea called the “Black Ticket”: You buy a ticket for the whole tour and that will get you into every show.
BRIDGERS That’s epic.
ULRICH And I can relate to that because back in the day, when I moved to California, I used to literally follow Motörhead around; I saw 68 Motörhead shows. You’ve obviously referenced Lemmy in one of your songs [“Smoke Signals”]. Did I hear that right?: “Singing ‘Ace of Spades’ when Lemmy died.”
BRIDGERS It’s a true story. I was on a road trip with my drummer, and we were listening to the radio. They were talking about how Lemmy passed away. We spent the whole road trip screaming along and making playlists. I listen to a lot of Motörhead, a lot of Metallica. I have dabbled in the Slayer world. And then, weirdly late for me, I got super into Nine Inch Nails.
ULRICH You can’t deny Trent and his talent. It’s insane.
BRIDGERS It’s one of those musical influences that I feel like isn’t very obvious in my music, but hopefully with this next record, it will be. I also have an apathetic voice, and I feel self-conscious that when I scream I sound like musical theater.
ULRICH Let that be a good thing. Let’s talk about writing. Obviously, there are three different elements to my ear: lyric, melody, and the musical accompaniment. What usually comes first for you?
BRIDGERS I sit down with a guitar, and then I’ll float around and try to find a melody; it comes weirdly at the same time. I feel like I write very carefully. There’s nothing that I hate more than looking back two days later and being like, “That’s dog shit.” So I try to save myself from that by being deliberate, and I almost write in order.
One of the craziest things I’ve ever seen is in the Metallica documentary [ Some Kind of Monster], when your therapist [Phil Towle] slides over [and suggests] lyrics. I was like, “Oh, my God.” I did listen to mixes with a therapist once, because she was like, “You’ve got to show me what the fuck you’re so anxious about.”
ULRICH It was a very transitional, experimental time. We’d been a band for 20 years, and we realized we never had a fucking conversation about how we’re feeling, what being in Metallica is doing to everybody. It was just this fucking machine. And then [ James] Hetfield had to go away and deal with some of his [substance abuse] issues, and then that opened up this whole thing.
It was a difficult time with Phil. And as easy as a target as he is to make fun of, whenever I get asked about it now, I find myself defending him. He did save the fucking band.
BRIDGERS Also, St. Anger is a great record. It might have been the first Metallica album I heard.
ULRICH That record had a very, very different makeup. For those couple years, everything was about being open with each other, about the spirit of no rules. I’m happy we did it. . . .
We’re three, four weeks into some pretty serious writing. And of all the shit — pandemics, fires, politics, race problems, and just fucking looking at the state of the world — it’s so easy just to so fall into a depressive state. But writing always makes me feel enthusiastic about what’s next. It’s like, “Fuck, there’s an opportunity here to still make the best record, to still make a difference. To still do something that not even turns other people on, but turns me on.” Did I read the other day that you’re starting a label, Saddest Factory [an imprint owned by Secretly Group, home to Secretly Canadian]?
BRIDGERS Yeah.
ULRICH I’m psyched that you’re doing it. I hope it goes better than what I did. Back in the late Nineties, early 2000s, I had an imprint through Elektra Records. One of the ones I put out was the least-selling record.
BRIDGERS Yeah, I definitely have nightly panic attacks that it’s too much to take on. But it’s going to be fun.
ULRICH If I hear anything, I’ll send it your way.
BRIDGERS Yeah, send shit my way! I’m going to try to beat your record of least-sold Secretly Canadian albums.
“One of the craziest things I’ve ever seen is in the Metallica documentary, when your therapist suggests lyrics. I listened to mixes with a therapist once because she was like, ‘Show me what you’re so anxious about.’” —PHOEBE BRIDGERS