JAVIER MASCHERANO
YOUR questions answered
“Carlos Tevez and I knew very little about West Ham – and the manager didn’t know us at all! But we didn’t have many options”
In 2006, the befuddled looks of Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano were mirrored far and wide. If the duo were at least partly optimistic about what was in store for them at West Ham, however, their first meeting with manager Alan Pardew put paid to that. “He asked us what our positions were,” Mascherano tells Fourfourtwo now, with a wry smile. “He didn’t know, even though we’d played at the World Cup a month and a half earlier.”
In the end, things did turn out well for him, notwithstanding that doomed, brief stint at Upton Park. First Liverpool came to the midfielder’s rescue, then Pep Guardiola converted Mascherano into a brilliant defender at Barcelona. Later, he even surpassed Javier Zanetti to become Argentina’s most- capped player with 147 appearances.
Last November, El Jefecito (‘ The Little Chief’) retired in typically quiet fashion: with a simple, short speech following a loss at Estudiantes. He had returned home in January 2020 after a spell in China, but COVID- 19 impelled him to finally call it a day.
On the pitch, at any rate. In January, Mascherano joined the Argentine FA as their new National Methodology and Development Director, focusing on La Albiceleste’s next generation.
But amid everything, the 36- year- old found time to answer your questions...
What was it like as a young player breaking into a River Plate first team where the expectations are so high? Facundo Pestalozzi, London
When you’re moving up through the ranks, the penny doesn’t always drop immediately. Everything evolved quite quickly for me: I joined River’s academy in 2000, and within 18 months I’d been promoted to the first team. I faced all of it as naturally as I could, but in 2003 I suddenly made my senior Argentina debut having not yet played for River’s first team. After that, I started getting more minutes for my club, and didn’t stay there for too long – just two years, before going to Corinthians [ in Brazil].
I think my laid- back personality was key to helping me get through those stages smoothly, but I won’t lie: I was overjoyed with how my professional career was progressing back then. My dream as a boy had always been to become a footballer, but experiencing those extraordinary moments never crossed my mind. I was very fortunate.
Real Madrid were linked with you in your youth. Was a move ever close? Marco Lane, London
I played at the 2004 Olympic Games, [ winning gold], then Real approached me because they were on the lookout for a defensive midfielder. But the deal didn’t happen. I was only 20, and they were after a more experienced player. That didn’t affect me at all, though, as I was still really young. I felt confident that other great opportunities would arise naturally along the way if I kept doing a good job.
One of your earliest Superclasico games against Boca Juniors [ below] was in the 2004 Copa Libertadores semi- finals. In the second leg, Carlos Tevez scored a very late goal which seemed to have sent Boca through, but your River side netted again to draw level on aggregate – and then lost on penalties. That had to hurt...? Rico Lucero, Buenos Aires
It’s hard to explain what a Superclasico is – you have to live it. And it can easily turn into madness! I played in many of them, but for that one specifically we spent weeks at home without going outside, because there was so much external pressure. If any of us bumped into a River fan, he’d ask desperately for us to win. Unfortunately, we ended up losing on penalties.
All things considered, I feel so lucky to have had the chance to enjoy many Superclasicos. It’s a very special kind of match: River vs Boca; Argentina vs Brazil; Liverpool vs Manchester United; Barcelona vs Real Madrid. These games gave my profession a meaning. All of the effort and sacrifices I made to be a professional player were rewarded in matches such as those. [ FFT: Was the Superclasico the biggest, though?] The pressure from the supporters lets you know what the game means to them. From what I’ve experienced in Europe, other clasicos end at the final whistle. The Superclasico, however, can be vital for what unfolds afterwards during the season – there have been many cases where a manager has been sacked for losing a River vs Boca derby. Everyone lives it with such phenomenal intensity and passion.
Why did you go to Brazil at the age of 21? Tevez was already there with Corinthians – how influential were he and Kia Joorabchian in the move? Alfie Bradley, Chatteris
They were both influential. Carlitos had gone there six months earlier and told me what they were like – a really big club. Corinthians had ambition to build a strong squad and be a contender for the title, even though they hadn’t been up there for a while. I liked the project
[ led by Joorabchian] that they showed me, but unfortunately it didn’t last too long. I wish that I’d stayed longer, but for various reasons I spent just a year there. Still, I’m grateful for the affection their fans gave me.
What do you remember about your part in Esteban Cambiasso’s iconic 24- pass goal for Argentina, against Serbia and Montenegro at the 2006 World Cup? Joe Quigley, via Facebook
I played a very tiny role in it. [ Laughs]
I made one or two passes at the start, but that was wonderful teamwork. On a collective level, it’s one of the most beautiful goals in World Cup history.
The 2006 World Cup quarter- final against Germany, which Argentina lost on penalties, was a very feisty affair. What happened? @ oysterdate, via Twitter
That match is a sad memory for me. We played so well, and on top of that we scored the opening goal. We had a chance to keep that advantage until the end, but Germany equalised with not much time left and unfortunately we lost the shootout. It was my first World Cup, Argentina had a good side, and we went home feeling we could have advanced further. [ FFT: Were you involved in all of the chaos afterwards? Punches were even thrown.] There were heated arguments between Germany’s coaching staff and some of our players after the penalties. I wasn’t part of it and couldn’t really see that much, but something happened.
You became a league champion with Corinthians, but they were battling relegation when you left. You’d said you wanted to stay and help them to survive – how hard was that period? Rodolfo de Freitas, Sao Paulo
Look, we [ Mascherano and Tevez] left Corinthians in the middle of 2006. We won the Brasileirao in 2005 and started the following year looking forward to the Copa Libertadores. After the World Cup, though, things weren’t good when we came back. One day, we were told that it would be better if we left, and that Corinthians and MSI planned to sell us to West Ham – so we had to go.
I watched how tough things got for the club. They were relegated the next year. [ FFT: Emerson Leao, a Brazilian, was in charge and known for not being a big fan of Argentines…] That’s true! It was very odd, because neither of us had done anything to him. His attitude made it clear that he wasn’t keen on Argentines. It didn’t make sense. If I’ve got an issue with one Brazilian, I can’t think all Brazilians are the same, right?!
Your move to West Ham with Tevez stunned football. How did it happen? Keil Hampton, via Facebook
It was unexpected – the transfer was done quickly. We both knew very little about West Ham and they were tough moments for me. I spent five months there and didn’t play much. To arrive in a country unknown to us, not speak the language and see the sports side not go to plan, was pretty frustrating.
Luckily, Liverpool and Rafael Benitez came for me in the winter window. He was a very, very important manager in my career. Only there could I properly appreciate what playing in the Premier League felt like. I had a great three and half years at Anfield. [ FFT: Be honest: did you want to join West Ham? Other big English clubs had been linked with you, too...] When I was about to leave Corinthians, the scenario was difficult for both Carlitos and me. There was no way out of our situation there.
Truth be told: when we got back from the World Cup, we intended to stay at Corinthians at least until the end of the year. But then we were told we had to go – the manager made it crystal- clear he didn’t want us. There weren’t many options on the table. Before I went to West Ham, I heard something about going to Arsenal, but it didn’t happen – they must have changed their minds.
I don’t regret anything about joining West Ham. Up to that point, my career had steadily gone upwards – perhaps this was just the first big obstacle I had to deal with. It helped me to become aware that European football wouldn’t be straightforward. I realised I’d have to work even harder to make it.
What did you know of the confusing contract situation with West Ham? Matt Young, via Instagram
I was very young [ 22] and didn’t know much about it, to be honest. For us, we
were just moving from Corinthians to West Ham. There was something between the clubs, because back then Corinthians were being managed by a specific company [ MSI]. We weren’t 100 per cent aware of the situation.
What did you think of Alan Pardew? Everyone remembers that he often picked Hayden Mullins ahead of you. Conor Cooke, Southend
He didn’t know us at all. [ Laughs] When he asked us what our positions were, Carlitos and I looked at each other as it sounded weird. We’d just represented Argentina at a World Cup. Plus, we had already signed our contracts. If you buy a player, the least you expect to know is their position!
Straight away, I knew I wouldn’t get many minutes, but I always respected every manager’s decision regardless of who was selected ahead of me. If the manager picked someone else, it was because he thought they were in better condition than me. All I was left with was the idea of training even harder, to be ready whenever I did get minutes.
When things weren’t going to plan at West Ham, obviously I was annoyed. It reached a point that I’d decided I had to move on, but I had a five- year deal. I didn’t want to keep earning money without playing. When I realised that the manager didn’t trust me and that it would be really hard to play, I began looking for alternatives. Luckily for me, Liverpool came calling.
I’ve always wondered: why do you think Jermain Defoe bit you in that game against Spurs? James Williams, via Facebook
I still don’t know! He must have gone mad that day – and he gave me quite a strong bite. I didn’t know how to tell the referee what happened. I wasn’t sure how to say ‘ bite’ in English, so the only thing I could do was this [ miming
the action]. I once asked Jermain why he did it on Instagram, and he replied with a giggling emoji. [ Laughs]
How surprising was it when Liverpool came along to rescue you? Matt Wood, Darlington
It was a such a big surprise. Liverpool are a huge club with massive history and tradition, and they were interested in me, who wasn’t even getting games for West Ham! But Rafa had followed me for a while, and convinced me to sign. I’ll be forever grateful for the way he helped me – without him, my career wouldn’t have been the same. When I went to Liverpool, I was still a young player with little experience, but Rafa’s concepts and philosophy shaped me into a far better player. I evolved a lot under him defensively, and my reading of the game improved a great deal too. We keep in touch and still have a good relationship. next to Alonso and Gerrard for longer – I didn’t actually share a midfield with Xavi and Iniesta on many occasions, as I started to play as a centre- back. The truth is that all of them, absolutely all of them, were wonderful players, and I enjoyed having them as team- mates so much. If we speak specifically about Gerrard and Alonso, they were superb midfielders beyond their outstanding quality and technique.
A few months after joining Liverpool, you featured in the 2007 Champions League Final. What was that like? Mislav Sokacic, via Facebook
Unbelievable – after just four months at Liverpool. I went from not getting many minutes at West Ham to starting in a European final. [ Laughs] That’s football in a nutshell: amazing things happen that can be hard to explain. That was why my utter dedication at West Ham, even without playing, paid off: because when Liverpool finally came knocking on my door, I was ready. I didn’t drop my guard. My mindset was key during those low moments.
Why did you become so angry and get sent off at Old Trafford in 2008? John Pritchard, Liverpool
I was livid with the referee – I think his name was [ Steve] Bennett. It happened because he was a ref who disrespected you. I don’t like to be treated like that; somebody looking down on me, as he did. That’s why I lost control [ and had to be restrained].
Do you regret refusing to play against Manchester City in 2010, in order to force a move to Barcelona? Kenny Wheeler, via Facebook
On one side I honestly do, as Liverpool fans weren’t happy with me at all and I completely understood why. On the other hand, the board at the time had promised me something and weren’t keeping their word.
There was an agreement between us that if Liverpool received a decent offer
“PARDEW ASKED WHAT OUR POSITIONS WERE. CARLITOS AND I LOOKED AT EACH OTHER. HE HAD ALREADY BOUGHT US!”
for me, I’d be permitted to leave. We’d spoken about extending my contract, but it seemed like the directors didn’t care about me. In the pre- season after Rafa left, Roy Hodgson arrived. We had a meeting with the managing director, Christian Purslow, who told me I could go if a good offer came in. Then there was an offer on the table, but Liverpool were looking the other way.
I was quite angry that they weren’t keeping their word. Refusing to play at City was the way I found to show my annoyance. I’d told the club I wanted to leave for family reasons, so I was very upset to have to act the way I did. There was no other option – otherwise, Liverpool wouldn’t keep their promise. [ FFT: What were the family reasons?] I was really happy in Liverpool, but it was tough for my wife and daughters. Although I was playing regularly and the supporters loved me – and they’re extraordinary people – the issue was that I trained for three or four hours a day and had 20 hours left to stay at home. It’s difficult to see your family unhappy and unsettled because of the language, the weather… I needed to go somewhere else for the wellbeing of my loved ones.
You say Liverpool represent you a lot – why do you feel such a connection to your former club? Would you love to play in the current side? @ spursdab, via Twitter
Yes, I’m a Liverpool supporter. I really mean it. Nobody has ever treated me as well as Liverpool fans did – never. Throughout the three and a half years there, they made me feel like I was one of them; like I was at home. That’s why I dedicated Barça’s 2011 Champions League Final win against Manchester United to them: it was the least I could do to pay them back somehow. I knew they weren’t happy, and I wanted to share the moment with them.
But wow, it would be crazy to play in Jurgen Klopp’s team. I’ve been happy to watch them doing well, winning the Premier League at last after so many years, with another Champions League trophy. I know how those fans wanted to win the title, so I can only imagine how pleased they’ve all been over the past few seasons.
Winning the 2008 Olympics ensured you were the first men’s footballer since 1968 to claim two gold medals. How and why was that generation of Argentine players so good? Romero, Zabaleta, Garay, Riquelme, Di Maria, Aguero, Messi – insane! Michael Phillips, Portishead
Higuain, too… Yes, it was such a great generation. Perhaps we needed to win one of our Copa America finals or the World Cup in order to be an incredible generation. Despite that, it was such a pleasure to represent my country on so many occasions alongside each of these brilliant guys.
Diego Maradona immediately made you his captain when he took over as Argentina manager in 2010. How did that feel, and how was he as a coach? Ezra Cohen, via Twitter
Well, there was both huge pride and responsibility to receive a big gesture like that from someone like Maradona, who also said many nice things about me. It was a stunning thing to happen to me, and I’ll always be very grateful to Diego for his trust.
At the beginning, it took us a while to get used to having Maradona as our manager, because he was everyone’s hero. It’s not easy having your idol as your coach! Over time, we adapted to it. He motivated and encouraged us a lot and was very close to the players, having chats and things like that. That journey with him was such a joy for me – a genuinely great experience. Diego was a great storyteller who you could listen to all day long.
Just how good was it to play in Pep Guardiola’s ridiculous Barça team? What do you think sets him apart as a manager? Nick Foster, Brighton
That was the best stage of my career, without a doubt. I had the chance to play in a side that will be remembered forever in football history, and that’s something that I’ll carry with me until my last days. What I lived and achieved with Barça is absolutely unforgettable. Beyond being champions of everything, it was the style of play – that’s one of the main reasons why Pep’s Barcelona made history. So many people around the world would sit in front of their TV whenever Guardiola’s Barça were on – that kind of admiration is rare.
So many aspects separate Guardiola as a manager. He can explain his ideas and playing style clearly, and he’s also one of those very rare managers who knows exactly how to react whenever a difficulty crops up. That has immense value for a player, because you know he’ll have the answer to any problem.
What’s the most memorable game you’ve ever played in? Henry Butler, via Instagram
The 2011 Champions League Final win over Manchester United, because our display was virtually perfect, wasn’t it? I think, on that day, our team played at a superlative level.
Lionel Messi scored 53 goals in your first season, then 73 in 2011- 12. How on earth does he do it? Charlie Exley, Staines
I don’t know! He didn’t tell me – that’s why I couldn’t score as many goals as him. [ Laughs] Lionel is an exceptional
player, and I doubt we’ll see someone like him ever again. Right now, what’s most important is that he’s happy, so he can display this enjoyment on the pitch. In his case, it’s a personal matter and it’s up to him to make a choice. As a friend of his, I want to see him happy – nothing but that. We’ve talked, as we usually do, and he’s doing well.
How did you feel about transitioning to centre- back under Guardiola? Is it true it nearly drove you to leave? Jonny Maunders, via Instagram
No, I liked it since we first decided on it – mainly because I was surrounded by extraordinary players. When you have team- mates as superb as I had, things become much easier. I thought I could adapt well to it, although I admit it was unusual. I enjoyed my new role. Before that happened, it was my lack of game time which almost forced me to leave Barcelona. With all the quality we had in that squad, it seemed very tough to secure a spot in the starting XI. Luckily, I was able to impress as a centre- back.
How were you able to play in central defence being only 5ft 9in? Abdullahi Abdulrahim, via Twitter
It’s true, that is short for a centre- back, but Barcelona’s playing style was key. We didn’t sit back and defend close to our goal – quite the opposite. Because we pressed high up the pitch, with our defensive line positioned far from our box, I didn’t need my height to make a difference. I had to be quick, though.
How did it feel to finally score a goal for Barça after almost seven years, with your penalty against Osasuna? @ mark1041882, via Twitter
That was just an anecdote, really – I’d never been that worried about scoring a goal! There was a joke about it in the dressing room, but all in good spirits as usual. Then I finally scored... [ Laughs]
What did you think when Gonzalo Higuain missed an incredible chance to score in the 2014 World Cup Final? Adolfo Mas, via Facebook
Well, it’s tough to dwell on these things in the heat of a massive game. You’ve just got to concentrate. We played well and had chances but simply couldn’t score, and Germany nicked one at the end. Argentina had a great World Cup overall, though, and our performance in the final wasn’t too bad either. We could have won. [ FFT: Would lifting the World Cup at the Maracana have been particularly special?] For us Argentines, it would have been even more special, but most of all we wanted to be world champions and write our names into history. We were so close to achieving it. I still get a little bit upset whenever I think about that match.
With so many great players over the past 25 years, why hasn’t it clicked for Argentina at a major tournament? Donal J O’driscoll, via Facebook
We all ask ourselves this question. We played in five major finals and, beyond everything, weren’t fortunate in any of them. We’d performed well throughout each of the tournaments, but lost the World Cup final in extra time and three of the others [ in the Copa America] on penalties. Luck plays an important role in football, and it was never on our side.
Tell us about your time with Hebei China Fortune... Francis Dixon, Harwich
I spent a couple of years in China and it was a fantastic adventure. I ended up getting to know a country that isn’t how I expected. They’re a powerhouse, and have developed so quickly. What impressed me most was the size of the cities – they’re huge and technological.
When you’re in China, it can feel like you’re on a different planet, and one of the biggest things I took advantage of was no one recognising me out on the streets. I could just walk freely as much as I wanted, which hadn’t happened to me before. I didn’t try eating anything weird, though – in such a globalised world, it’s not that hard to find western food! Culturally speaking, I visited the Great Wall of China, loads of temples and the Forbidden City. They were very enriching experiences.
Do you think Xavi would make a good manager for Barcelona if given the opportunity one day? Ade Aliyu, Lagos
Definitely. He’s completely capable for the position. More than that, I strongly believe he’ll be another great coach in Barcelona’s history. Sooner or later it’ll happen, and I’m sure he’ll deliver.
“I’M A LIVERPOOL FAN. DEDICATING BARÇA’S 2011 WIN AGAINST MAN UNITED TO THEM WAS THE LEAST I COULD DO”