FAMILY TIES
IT leader Dave Curran and his teenage daughter Isobel shed light on the creative side of the technology industry. Styled by Kate Darvill. Photographed by Jake Terrey.
IT leader Dave Curran and his teenage daughter Isobel shed light on the creative side of the technology industry.
At last year’s inaugural Vogue Codes, Dave Curran, chief information officer of Westpac, was one of the stars of the day, speaking on a panel about gender diversity in the technology industry and other STEM-related spaces. To follow, in conversation with his 16-year-old daughter Isobel Curran, father and daughter speak to Vogue about the breadth of technology, gender equity versus equality, and how they challenge each other.
This year Dave Curran returns to open the Vogue Codes Summit on July 28. Following this the new Vogue Codes Live event – which invites girls and young women like Isobel to attend – will be held in Sydney on July 29, and in Melbourne on August 10. Vogue: Dave, you spoke at Vogue Codes last year. What did you take away from it? Dave Curran: “My wife went home and started downloading some coding stuff, which was really interesting. For me, coming home and talking to Isobel was really a rearticulation of: ‘Do what you want to do, keep your mind open.’ Because I have a job in the industry, I can talk about how broad it is. Which is why we’re talking about coding and as soon as we start talking about design, her eyes light up. We talked a lot about gender equality and gender equity. Maybe Isobel should explain it first.”
“WE’RE ONE-THIRD FEMALES WHEN THERE’S NO REASON WHY WE SHOULDN’T BE 50–50”
Isobel Curran: “I think that gender equity is when you want females and males and everyone to do the best to their abilities and it’s kind of hard in a male-dominated field if you don’t have girls learning about it, knowing what it is and being surrounded by it.” Dave: “In my personal opinion, equity is a good thing; equality is an overused term. We are different and not just by gender but just by who we are in our DNA, and I think what people actually want is equity – to be treated fairly. People don’t want to be treated the same because people are not all the same. We keep talking about equality and in my mind equality is assuming that we’re all homogenous and we’re all the same and it’s having it fair. And when you see someone – be they female, be they gay, be they Indigenous, be they disabled, be they what have you – not being given the same chance, that’s wrong. But similarly, treat them the same? Well, there is difference. And you know, we should celebrate those differences.” Vogue: And at Vogue Codes last year, you were asked if your perspective was moulded from having a daughter. Dave: “If I had sons, I wouldn’t have thought of it that strongly. I am, and my wife is, Anglo-Saxon Australian and our kids are therefore in a majority. My eldest is a son, but then when you have a daughter, particularly when you’re a male, you get to see that lens. Then I look at my team and we’re one-third females when there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be 50–50. That’s better than the 25 per cent that’s in the industry, but not where we need to be. But having a daughter really makes you see that better. I’m a really analytical type of person, that’s just who I am. Seeing the impact of blind CVs, where you take name and sex and other things out of a CV, that really struck me. That to me is just an affront to everything I can think of. To think that someone is using that bias against my daughter really gets at me with that paternal instinct.” Vogue: Isobel, what do you know about what your father does for a living? Isobel: “Dad works in computers and technology. A couple of years ago I came to understand how big his job is. I still don’t understand everything about it, but I know it’s important and he works very hard and makes sure technology runs well in the bank, which is about as far as my knowledge goes. It’s a lot more complicated than I thought. It’s cool that he gets to change a lot of things because I guess everything’s changing and for him to have an influence on it, I think is really cool.” Dave: “Someone once asked if Isobel was interested in working in technology and she said: ‘No, I don’t want to be a computer programmer’, to which I reacted and said that there’s so much more to it. I went through a list and kept mentioning user experience and user experience design. Isobel asked what it was and I said: ‘Well, take out a phone, look at the apps. Someone had to design that and how the experience went and this light went off. That was two years ago. Isobel will look at my PowerPoints [for work now] and say: ‘I should do your PowerPoint.’” Isobel: “I am not a very artistic person but design, I think, is different to art, and I am much more interested in design and patterns, colours, textures. For a school assignment about careers, I profiled the job of user experience. My original choice was a Formula One driver, which I thought was the coolest job ever. But I didn’t know a lot about user experience so I thought it would be beneficial to learn. No-one in my class knew what it was except for my teacher. It was exciting to be able to teach people about it.” Dave: “And my expectation is that by the time Isobel gets through university that user experience would evolve into something else. So if she’s thinking creativity using technology, call it user experience for today, happy days. It is a massive career opportunity with growth, but actually, the way technology’s going, that whole human interface is going to become the biggest thing that’s going on and if you’re the person creating that, then that is amazing. I’m proud of the [choice of] Formula One driver, because there’s no conversation between us about what you should do. Instead, we just said not to do stereotypes [for the school assignment]. At the end of the day, you’re a parent and you want what your children want. So I had a smile, because Formula One is quite male dominated, so I thought it was cool.” Isobel: “I didn’t think about it being male dominated. I just wanted to drive cars.” Vogue: So Isobel is gender blind to that kind of career – she just likes it. Dave, how do you instil that in your children? Dave: “One of my concerns at the moment is that you see these teenage kids being driven to careers by their parents. And the parents only know what they knew then and the world is moving very fast. So what they knew two generations ago was fine then because the world wasn’t moving, but now it is and you see these kids, including bright young girls, and it’s like: ‘You should do law, you should do medicine.’ Why? And let’s face it, most of us when we were 16, 17 had no idea. I mean I’m 52 and I still have no idea! So Anna [Dave’s wife] and I talk about how we can make sure our kids look at what they’re interested in and any time they give a stereotypical answer you just try to challenge that without trying to endanger the flip side, which is that you end up doing what you exactly intended not to: you get so passionate you start suggesting careers the other way, which is wrong. The world is moving so fast, so how do we just make sure the kids are just looking up and looking out?” Vogue: Can you think of a time when you challenged your daughter? Dave: “I always challenge Isobel to make her own decisions and be accountable for her own decisions. The other side is the easy one: Isobel’s challenged me to go bungee jumping in January.” Vogue: Did you do it? Isobel: “I forced him too, so he did!” Dave: “The two of us did a week-long trip in New Zealand.” Isobel: “Well, we just went to have a look at it first. That was Dad’s suggestion, ’cause he didn’t think I’d do it and I didn’t think I’d do it. And then I was like: ‘We’re doing it!’ It didn’t take Dad much convincing for him on the outside, but I think on the inside, when he got up there, he still didn’t really want to.” Vogue: Are you decisive usually? Dave: “Yes.” Isobel: “It’s annoying.” Dave: “I think I was always decisive, but I’m more confident in my decision-making.” Isobel: “I can choose when I’m by myself … I am very influenced by other people’s opinions even if I don’t have those opinions.” Dave: “But there are some things, like the bungee jumping, that would have been so easy for you to talk yourself out of, which you didn’t. It was so great to see you climb to the top and jump.”