National Post (National Edition)
Rubin on new book, censorship from left and fixing liberalism
The National Post’s Jonathan Kay recently interviewed American author Dave Rubin, whose tour for his new book, Don’t Burn This Book: Thinking for Yourself in the Age of Unreason, was disrupted by the pandemic, and is now being done out of Rubin’s garage.
Kay: What’s it been like doing a book tour without actually touring?
Rubin: It’s bizarre. The book came out April 28, and I was supposed to be in New York the week before, doing all kinds of press, going on every TV show you can imagine and meeting with the publishers. And then I was supposed to be on the book tour that night for the next month and a half. Instead, I’m in my garage. I happen to have a studio in my garage. So it’s kind of funny. We’re seeing all these CNN anchors in their kitchens, in their living rooms. I was a little ahead on the home studio thing. And there’s a certain convenience to it, but talking to a live person always adds a little something else to the conversation. But I’ve enjoyed this. And you do what you gotta do.
Kay: Your original book idea was about how you abandoned the left — and then you had a more interesting idea.
Rubin: Yeah. The original title was Why I Left the Left, which is the title of a popular PragerU video I did. I became sort of a “left the left” guy. I talk about the regressive left and that the left is no longer liberal.
I started writing that book. And I quickly realized I don’t know if I want to write a book about what I’m against — I want to write a book about what I’m for. And that’s what it became. I lay out three moments in the book that were my seminal “wake up” moments.
I’ll give you one. You may know David Webb, a conservative commentator on Sirius XM Patriot Channel. He guest hosts on Fox News. And years ago when I was a lefty, I was on the Young Turks. We were watching a clip of Fox News and Webb came on and suddenly they were saying all the worst things about him. He was just talking about some basic conservative beliefs. Doesn’t even matter what, specifically. But suddenly they were calling him an “Uncle Tom” and a sellout and a race traitor. I used to go on his show every week and we’d debate and then we’d go have a steak and some whisky. And we were good, even though we disagreed on almost everything. I knew him to be a good man and forthright and a passionate advocate for his positions.
It wasn’t some fake thing.
Yet here the Young Turks were, the supposed tolerant people, seeing a black man, and just because he didn’t think the way they want black people to think, he was the bad guy. It suddenly became so clear to me that there’s a new pernicious racism, which is that you say you’re “for” groups — gays, blacks, women.
But you can’t be “for” whole groups because black people think all sorts of different things. Gay people think all sorts of different things. Women think all sorts of different things. And to watch a group of supposedly tolerant people be angry at a black man who just thought differently than them, I realized was a new sort of systemic racism.
Kay: Your book is partly about what you call the pitfalls of leaving the left. What are they?
Rubin: The biggest growing political movement or political ideology in America right now is the disaffected liberal, which is what I would say I am — I am a true liberal. And I lay out what classical liberalism is, which, of course, means every legal citizen of any country should be treated equally under the law. And then basically laissez-faire economics. That’s pretty much what my belief system is. That’s live and let live.
As far as the pitfalls, well,
I lay out some of the things I guarantee will happen to you if you leave the left — or even start questioning it. When I started talking about my frustrations, I was always saying “we.” I was saying “we guys,” “we the left” have abandoned liberalism. “We” have to fix liberalism. “We” have to stand for the things we’re supposed to stand for, like free speech and open inquiry and not deplatforming speakers. I was doing this from the left. And people see I’m trying to give them the courage, I suppose, to be able to walk — and not be destroyed once you pick one position that is counter to whatever mainstream leftist orthodoxy is of the day.
If you don’t check all those boxes, they will eliminate you and try to mob you on social media. They will go after your employer. You will watch friends and family members turn on you. And even if you say no, those are none of my beliefs, they’ll move the goalposts.
One tip I give people is don’t apologize unless you genuinely have done something wrong.
I’m not saying never apologize. We’ve all done things that are wrong. So you can apologize if it’s earnest. But a lot of times, (let’s say) a celebrity will say something everyone knows is basically right. You may remember Mario Lopez said … something to the effect that we shouldn’t be transitioning kids who are four years old, you know, gender transition. That’s not anti-trans. It’s just that we might want to wait till they’re a bit older. But he got mobbed. And then what does he do? He basically issues a faux apology. He doesn’t really feel any contrition.
Another one would be actor Mark Duplass. He tweeted something to the effect that Ben Shapiro is not the devil, he just has different political thoughts. Duplass got mobbed, then deleted the tweet and issued an apology. And once you apologize for something you’re not sorry for, now they’ve got their foot on your neck forever. So stand up for what you believe. If more of us start doing it, we can actually silence that mob.
Kay: It’s interesting that you’re not talking about government censoring people — which is what we would have worried about 20 or maybe even 10 years ago. Instead, we’re talking about people censoring each other.
Rubin: We should always be wary of the government silencing dissent, silencing speech. But at the moment, Donald Trump can tweet whatever he wants and then what happens? The first hundred people that respond are usually blue-check journalists or actors or activists, telling him he’s a Nazi, he’s Hitler, he’s going to burn in hell. And guess what? Nobody knocks on their door. The Gestapo doesn’t show up. The bigger worry to me is that we are censoring ourselves.
Kay: You’re a gay man. Many of the people pushing back against social-justice cultism are gay men, lesbians, Jews, Muslims — people who have some trait that makes them stand out. Do you think having at least some mark of outsider status gives you moral capital to push back?
Rubin: I’ve asked this of guests of mine who are in similar situations. Of Douglas Murray, the wonderful author from the U.K. who’s written a lot about this. His last book, Madness of Crowds, is one of the best books of the year. He’s a gay conservative. I see this from women. I see this from black people. It sort of gets to what I was saying earlier about why when you say you’re “for” a group, you will actually crush all the free thinkers within that group. I’m trying to stop that from happening.
If you’re a minority, I don’t think that should give you power over people. I don’t think that inherently makes your opinions correct. That would be absurd. But I do think that if you are a minority, you realize uniqueness is deeply important.
The most interesting example would be the gay community. For four decades, they brought a tremendous amount of art and music and comedy and cultural stuff. Much of this is before my time. Then, things shifted and the progressive movement sort of infiltrated the gay community. I’m not saying their intentions were bad. Gay marriage is an extremely positive development that the progressives pushed. But they were pushing for gays to be equal, not above. And what happens then is the activists don’t want to go out of business, sort of, so they have to keep finding new perceived oppression.
So I think, unfortunately, the gay community, whatever that term broadly means, went from fighting for something, from being outsiders. And by the way, that comes with a lot of pain. Many gay people have written about this. But you take that, then you get equality. And now that’s great. But then the progressives move in and they kind of use you as a tool.
So if you notice, there’s really nothing interesting coming out of the gay community these days. And that is to directly answer your question. That is why we’re watching so many gay people walk away (from progressive orthodoxy). And it’s the same thing with the black community.
Kay: You’re an American. Do you find your political message resonates with Canadians? It used to be that a political writer like you was mostly a celebrity in your own country. But thanks to social media, things are much more global.
Rubin: It really does. Part of that I have to credit to Jordan Peterson, obviously, because he’s sort of Canada’s biggest export over the last couple of years, certainly intellectually. I toured with Jordan. We had many stops in Canada. I’ve done some speaking events with Maxime Bernier from the Canadian People’s party. I do sense there is a strong liberty movement growing in Canada, you know, as Justin Trudeau and the Liberals sort of extend their power. Western Canada feeling left out of the decision-making process, I sense a strong liberty movement there. So we had absolutely wonderful receptions in all our Canadian stops. I love doing them. We had a running joke because I would moderate the Q-and-A at the end of the shows. And each time, somebody would ask if Jordan would run for prime minister and he’d make a fun, silly comment about Trudeau. And it would always get a huge laugh. I do sense there is a set of Canadians waking up to some of these more liberty or individual rights issues, which maybe isn’t fully within the Canadian political ethos as much as it is within an American one.
But, yes, to your point. You know, it’s like everything is now local and what’s local is now everything.
AND PEOPLE SEE I’M TRYING TO GIVE THEM THE COURAGE, I SUPPOSE, TO BE ABLE TO WALK — AND NOT BE DESTROYED ONCE YOU PICK ONE POSITION THAT IS COUNTER TO WHATEVER MAINSTREAM LEFTIST ORTHODOXY IS OF THE DAY. — DAVE RUBIN