Erdogan: Issues of sovereignty do not harm dialogue
Ahead of Greek PM's visit to Ankara, Turkish president tells Kathimerini Greece and Turkey can discuss differences without any fait accompli
hours before welcoming Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis to Ankara, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan spoke to Kathimerini about all the issues pertaining to the two countries' bilateral relations: The old differences, such as the delimitation of the continental shelf and the maritime deal between Ankara and the Libya Government of National Accord (GNA), as well as the ones that have arisen recently, such as Greece's decision to establish marine parks in the Aegean Sea, in reaction to which Turkey once again raised the question of sovereignty over the small, uninhabited islands. The Turkish president also answers questions about his country's relations with the United States, after the postponement of his planned meeting with President Joe Biden which was set to be held on May 9.
– Mr President, in your statement regarding the visit of Kyriakos Mitsotakis to Ankara, you mentioned that you will talk with him “about how relations between the two countries can be improved.” Are you satisfied with the level of bilateral relations? What is the goal and how can it be achieved?
The goal is simple: To consolidate our friendship and raise the level of our bilateral relations to a level unprecedented in history, by solving our problems. To this end, we in Turkey have recently taken sincere and effective steps and we intend to continue. We, Turkey and Greece, share not only the same geography but also many common elements with a historical dimension. Of course, there are issues on which we disagree, but the number of issues on which we can agree is not small. By speaking openly and courageously about all issues together we can take steps towards a solution. Procrastination doesn't solve problems. It is necessary to overcome them with courage and show a will to resolve them. Just as we strive, with the world watching in awe, to establish peace both in our region and in different geographical locations of the world, so we will do everything in our power to ensure that peace and tranquility will always prevail on both sides of the Aegean Sea. It's easy to destroy something. The hard part is building and solving problems with skill. Therefore, it is up to us to relax the relations between the two countries, which are trying to squeeze themselves between two walls, and to tear down those walls which are full of prejudices. All we need are solution-oriented and honest historical steps.
– How was your meeting with Mitsotakis in Athens? Is your communication with him at the level you desire?
I believe that we have achieved a climate of harmony with Mr Mitsotakis recently. They showed a hospitality that satisfied us in Athens. Of course, when we host Mr Mitsotakis in Ankara, we will demonstrate one of the rarest examples of Turkish hospitality. The climate I mentioned has started to bear concrete results. The Athens Declaration, the agreements and protocols we signed are just some of them. There is no barrier to adding new ones. I can say that very good relations have been established not only between us, but also at the level of ministers and bureaucrats. In conclusion, our communication is satisfactory on many levels and it is very likely that we will move forward in a positive way.
– Recently, Ankara reacted to the steps Greece wanted to take regarding the creation of two marine parks in the Ionian and Aegean seas. While Athens says this is an environmental matter, Turkey's Foreign Ministry raised the issue of “island sovereignty.” Mitsotakis stated that Greece will move ahead with the plan. Can bilateral dialogue move forward when questions are raised not only of exploitation rights in the sea but also of sovereignty over land?
Raising issues of sovereignty is not something that damages the grounds of dialogue and hinders its progress. We can protect this ground under any circumstances and ensure progress. These matters already have a special place on the list of issues that we have to deal with. We can discuss these issues with a perspective that is far from any fait accompli and adopt
an approach that believes in the solution. Everyone knows how sensitive we, as Turkey, are on the environment. However, it would be wrong to see this as a convenient screen for hiding other controversial situations behind it. Each issue must be viewed in its own context. Indeed, the Law of the Sea encourages cooperation among coastal states in enclosed or semi-enclosed seas such as the Aegean, among others, on environmental issues. On the other hand, everyone knows that Turkey will not accept de facto situations in this region.
– Greece considers the agreements signed between Turkey and Libya (GNA) invalid and Turkey considers the agreements between Greek and Egypt regarding the partial demarcation of the sea
boundaries invalid. Likewise, a number of agreements between Cyprus and Israel are considered invalid by Turkey. In such an environment, can we talk about any cooperation between Greece and Turkey on the exploitation of hydrocarbons?
Let's start by making a correction. In your question you mentioned an agreement between Cyprus and Israel. It is only an assumption that the entire island of Cyprus has signed an agreement delineating its maritime exclusive economic zone with Israel. This agreement, which we do not recognize, was signed between the Greek administration of southern Cyprus and Israel, while the rights and interests of Turkish Cypriots, who constitute an essential element of the island, i.e. of the Turkish Republic
of Northern Cyprus, have been ignored. On the other hand, for us, energy is not an area of conflict, but an area of cooperation. For this reason, approaching the subject from a positive angle is more than enough. Turkey has consistently advocated and consistently called for a fair and inclusive distribution of hydrocarbon resources. As in all matters, we want our sovereign rights and powers to be respected, as we also respect the rights and principles of coastal countries. However, we have always shown the necessary reaction to any attempts to ignore Turkey. In addition, we have made an open call and stated that a basis for an inclusive energy cooperation must be created and that we will support the steps to be taken for it. Everyone should know that it is difficult for an energy platform that does not include Turkey to succeed in the region, especially in the Eastern Mediterranean. By convening the Eastern Mediterranean conference that we have been talking about for years, it is possible to create a basis for a solution with a win-win approach. Unfortunately, our appeals on this matter have so far gone unanswered. I have emphasized at every opportunity that this proposal, which has significant potential to ensure a healthy dialogue in the region, should be adopted by other actors as well. I think such a step will facilitate cooperation, and contribute to the diversity and security of resources. Unfortunately, steps that ignore the rights of Turkey and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus have poisoned the atmosphere on this issue so far. If we abandon this and create the grounds for dialogue that we desire, we are ready to take responsibility for a permanent solution. You can't get anywhere with tension. It should be understood that getting caught up in provocations benefits no one and ways should be sought to reach a reasonable point.
– The positions of the two countries on the subject of the Aegean continental shelf are well known. No change in the attitude of the two countries is expected. Would you accept the mediation of an institution such as the International Court of Justice in The Hague to resolve the long-running dispute?
The solution here is clear, the solution is to comply with international law and make it viable. As long as we don't avoid it, there shouldn't be any obstacles we can't overcome together. As you know, we advocate that problems should be solved as a package. We should not ignore other controversial points by focusing on a single difference. When we say that we have arrived at a comprehensive solution, we must not pass down frictions to future generations. Our priority is clear. Our approach to finding solutions through peaceful means in accordance with international law is the key to eliminating problems. We do not rule out solutions inscribed in the UN Charter, if necessary. We express this clearly at every opportunity. As long as we are not saying, “Let's solve this problem while the others remain unsolved,” and let's face the problems together.
– More than a year has passed without tension in and over the Aegean Sea. Do you agree that the abstention from military action can and should be maintained, regardless of any progress in the bilateral disputes?
`It would be wrong to see this [the environment] as a convenient screen for hiding other controversial situations behind it'
As we say, it is always important to maintain the basis of dialogue and cooperation. We are not in favor of tension. Just as we have no designs on the rights of others, we do not want anyone to show disrespect for our rights. Continuing a behavior that respects sensitivities ensures that an atmosphere without tension prevails; we experienced this together. This calmness is a sign of how necessary it is for relationships to develop on a fair basis. We do not hesitate to extend a hand of friendship as long as there is a response. We value friendship and good-neighborly relations. As long as no steps are taken that can harm us, this attitude will continue.
– What is your opinion on the level of cooperation with Greece in controlling illegal migration?
In this area, the contacts and exchange of information between our authorities produced important results and this continues. On the other hand, as we always emphasize, in the issue of irregular migration there must be international cooperation and an equal distribution of burdens and responsibilities. For permanent solutions, it is obvious that we must continue to work with a multifaceted scheme. The cooperation of all those involved in the matter will pave the way for us to move forward on a fast, efficient and sound basis.