‘Exodus of talent not good for India’

Even twelve years after he retired from active politics in Canada after serving as the first Indian immigrant – and the only so far – premier of British Columbia province, Ujjal Dosanjh,76, remains an influential voice of the Punjabi diaspora, well-regarded for his steadfast view against the Khalistani elements. In India to release his latest fiction book ‘ The Past is Never Dead’ on caste dynamics in India, Dosanjh interacted with HT staffers on Friday, answering a range of questions. Edited excerpts.

What is your latest book all about?

It is the life story of a young untouchable child whose father leaves India in 1942 for England, and then returns in 1952 to take his son, the only child, and his wife with him. It is about how caste is inseparable from an Indian life in many cases. It does not matter what faith you are, what region you come from, it (caste) follows.

There has been acceleration in migration in recent years, not just of students but also families. What is new in this migration story?

What is new is the scale of migration. One of the reasons is that there is absolute dearth of real jobs. Everyone who does a BA, MA or some other course wants a government job. In most countries, it is not the government that gives the jobs. At the most, only 5 to 6% of the population works for the government and others work in private sector. Politicians here also never tell people that it is not their job to give you a job other than a few civil service jobs. Their job is to create environment conducive for creating jobs.

Is this exodus good for Punjab?

Absolutely not! You spend your money on IITs and IIMs and India is not a rich country. It is not just brain drain. There is a money drain happening from India. Several hundred million dollars go to Canada every year with the students. There was a time when immigrants, back in the 50s and 60s, used to send money and it was positive trade for India. Now, it is net negative. You are losing both talent and money.

Is there any possibility of reverse migration at some stage?

No chance until may be 200 years from now when the world becomes one. Most of children born and raised in Canada are not going to come back. I don’t think most of us who have gone there as first generation will uproot themselves and return. There might be a few, but I doubt it very much.

What are your views on caste-based reservation in India?

As a principle, I have absolutely no problem and whether you have reservation or other incentives is a debate that is going on. Reservation grew out of the need. I know there is a lot of resentment. In Canada where people do not have to deal with it, they make lots of comments and that tells you caste hatred exists.

What do you think is the reason behind the increase in hate crimes against Indians in Canada?

Racism has been an integral part of Canadian society. It is less racist today than it was 50 years ago. As for more incidents, there is a lot more population. We are now 1.5 million Indians across the country. Every time there is an incident between a white, or non-Indian person and an Indian person doesn’t mean it is racist.

You are known for speaking out against Khalistanis. Did you get any support from the Sikh diaspora when there was blowback from separatist forces?

A vast majority of Sikh temples do not support Khalistan. You only hear in the news about those that do. Everyone knows about Dixie gurdwara. There are two major temples in Vancouver,

and they do not support Khalistan. I had support from the larger community. They have known me for a long time as I was an activist on farm workers, domestic workers among others long before the Khalistan issue came. When I spoke my mind on Khalistan, a lot of people from the larger community recognised and thanked me for what I was doing. A vast majority of the Sikhs did the same thing, several of them in hiding and others openly. There are not many Khalistani elements in Canada, and there have never been. There was a large angry element in 1984 though because the army went into the temple. The anger disappeared over time. In 1989-90, I ran for the nomination again and there was a feeling that the Sikhs would not vote for me or the party. Khalistans from all over British Columbia started signing people to defeat me and a public meeting had to be cancelled due to disruption. I had about 300 votes and resoundingly defeated three other candidates who had 50 votes amongst them. And 80% of those who signed up were Indians.

What about reports that pro-Khalistan activities are being supported and funded by people in Canada and some other western countries?

I do not see a Khalistan movement in India. You see Khalistan invading from abroad, but I do not see that either. I see that there is a body of people who are generally alienated from the larger society and are seeking relevance in their lives. The Government of India needs to ignore them. You should not worry about it. The Government of Canada cannot do anything about it if someone raises a slogan (in favour of Khalistan).

But this issue has been a sticking point between India and Canada.

It is because India misunderstands how things happen in a real democracy where people can speak their minds. One of the problems that Canadian politics suffered from is that some Khalistanis have sanitised themselves and crept into political parties. But even there they can’t openly say that they are for Khalistan. The GoI itself is not absolutely clean because they would give visa to somebody like Ripudaman Malik just because he was acquitted, and then expect ordinary Indians who have gone there, to defend India against the Khalistanis. Lots of people in India are demanding ‘Hindu Rashtra’. If somebody in Canada demands Khalistan in India, how can anyone ban or jail them. If they create an organisation, send money or smuggle weapons into the country to create chaos or promote violence, law should do something about it. India-Canada relations need to mature a bit. It is in our interest for both countries to have better relations. This whole Khalistani thing is overblown.

Punjabi diaspora was rooting for change in Punjab. Since the third alternative has come to power, how do you look at political change that has happened?

Change is always good. I do not know AAP, but I know there was enthusiasm for it abroad. There was also enthusiasm for Manpreet Badal earlier, but then he fizzled.

What will you counsel to the new government in Punjab?

You need new political ethics and culture in India, not just in Punjab. You need the culture of Nehru and Gandhi. There is no regulation on political funding. You got to make elections less expensive and less corrupt. The AAP should work on all of this.

What will be your advice to Punjabi youths who are desperate to go to Canada?

My advice will be to stop looking to government for jobs and hold them accountable for producing the conditions that others can grow the jobs. The real productive jobs like factories, foundries, manufacturing plants happen in private sector. Nobody is talking about these things.