HAZIM ARAFEH Kiwi Muslim

education and leadership.

Many Westerners will balk at this. Aren’t women in Saudi Arabia, for example, clearly second-class citizens?

Religion is one thing, he replies, and cultural traditions another.

‘‘I was born in Saudi Arabia and my Mum [a teacher] wore a black dress. All women in Saudi Arabia are always dressed in black.

‘‘When I was young I used to think that the colour black is mandatory, Islamically mandatory,’’ he says.

‘‘When we relocated back to Jordan, my mother used to wear a brown dress, you know, or a blue dress, or a green dress, all right?

‘‘I once discussed it with my Mum, actually. She said the colour black is not mandatory, it’s the cultural tradition of that country.

‘‘And when you are in their country you have to respect their cultural tradition.’’

Islamic countries, he says, span a wide spectrum, from ‘‘more conservative’’ Saudi Arabia to other ‘‘more liberal’’ states.

The terrorists of Islamic State, he says, break the Islamic code that forbids unjustified killing both of Muslims and non-muslims.

He was ‘‘surprised’’ by former prime minister John Key’s claim that some New Zealand women became ‘‘jihadi brides’’ and went to help Isis in Iraq and Syria.

However, it could have happened: ‘‘I would say you can never say never.’’

He is worried about radicalisation of young Kiwi Muslims by Isis propaganda.

‘‘It’s less than a handful,’’ he says, ‘‘but when it comes to us one person is one person too much. We want the number to be zero.’’

The Muslim community is taking steps to deal with this, he says, but revealing what it was ‘‘might be counterproductive’’.

Do Muslim leaders in New Zealand cooperate with the intelligence services?

‘‘We maintain some interaction with the intelligence services,’’ he says, and declines to elaborate. Doing so ‘‘could jeopardise whatever we are trying to do to safeguard New Zealand’’.

Last year Arafeh sacked Auckland imam Mohammad Anwar Sahib for making an anti-semitic speech at a mosque in Manukau: ‘‘The Christians are using the Jews,’’ the preacher said, ‘‘and the Jews are using everybody because they think that their protocol is to rule the entire world.’’

Can he reassure New Zealanders that others aren’t also preaching hate in the mosques?

That’s why you have Islam awareness week, he replies, when the public can visit mosques and ask questions. Such as ‘‘where do you hide the weapons?’’ he laughs.

One reason for the widespread prejudice against Muslims, he suggests, is the long period of colonial rule in