Winona’s world
She was the 1990s icon who defined Gen X on the big screen, creating a cult fan base that has never gone away. Now she’s following up her Stranger Things renaissance with a new binge-worthy hit box set. Laura Atkinson meets Winona Ryder.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that a woman in lockdown during the pandemic of 2020 must have watched the BBC hit Normal People. Or, in the case of Hollywood legend Winona Ryder, watched it three times. While sobbing. “You know what’s saved me?” she says slowly from her LA home, when we speak via Facetime. She is sipping coffee and sitting in front of an enormous bookcase. It is the week of the Black Lives Matter protests and Ryder, glued to the news, is feeling emotional. “I’ll be weeping all day and then I’ll be weeping all night because I’m watching Normal People. I watched it for the third time last night. And I’m planning on watching it more,” she says of the story of tortured love between the teenagers Marianne and Connell. “It’s just so good. I felt like I was that age again. And I am obsessed with those two,” she sighs, meaning the British and Irish actors Daisy Edgar-jones and Paul Mescal.
“I feel like, weirdly, because I’m older, I’m so proud of them … I’m going to write them letters, I just don’t know what to say!” she adds giddily.
Coming from the woman whose early career is the blueprint for cinematic adolescent angst, this is quite the compliment. Whether the deliciously dark Veronica Sawyer in Heathers,
Cher’s troubled daughter Charlotte in Mermaids,
or goth hero Lydia in Tim Burton’s Beetlejuice,
Ryder knows how to play coming-of-age better than most. After starting her acting career at the age of 15, she became one of the defining — and most famous — actresses of the 1980s and 1990s, an offbeat, pixieish beauty whose sardonic onscreen delivery and grunge aesthetic made her a pin-up for the disaffected youth of Gen X.
Then came the big-hitters: Scorsese’s The Age of Innocence (she won a Golden Globe and an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of May Welland), Little Women (Jo, before Saoirse Ronan and another Oscar nomination), and Girl, Interrupted, on which she was also an executive producer.
What really set her apart from her peers, however, was the obsession that she inspired. There were T-shirts with Ryder’s name on, pop songs immortalising her, bands named after her, guest appearances on both Friends and The Simpsons, those lightning rods of 1990s pop culture. And, yes, an engagement to Johnny Depp when she was just 18 that sent the tabloids wild. Winona — for there is only one Winona — was cool in a way that her contemporaries (Julia Roberts, Sandra Bullock) could never be: a cult indie icon who has never followed the standard Hollywood rules.
With huge fame, however, comes huge, well, sacrifices. Ryder is particularly private, having understandably battened down the hatches some years ago. Is she the fragile, intense woman portrayed in the media? Perhaps — which is part of the charm — but despite normal neuroses around the current world situation (“I was lying in bed last night and I was like, ‘God, does anything even matter any more?”’), she is also wonderfully warm (“Look after your babies,” she tells me as we say goodbye), smart and self-assured. Conversation is a little meandering — sentences go unfinished and she forgets what we’re talking about more than once (“Wait, what did you just ask?”) — but, phew, she is still cool as hell in her vintage Kate Bush T-shirt, hair scraped back. So far, so Winona.
In the past few years television is where she has found her best roles, a renaissance of sorts, first as Joyce Byers in Netflix’s Stranger Things, for which she received another Golden Globe nomination. Next up is The Plot Against America, based on the Philip Roth novel of the same name and created by David Simon and Ed Burns, the men behind The Wire. In this alternate history of America in the 1940s, Ryder plays Evelyn, the single older sister in a Jewish family, as a fascist leader comes to power. “There’s a lot of hate out there. And he knows how to tap into it,” is a line from the show about the new fictional president. Sound familiar? “Can you believe that?” Ryder shakes her head. “It’s pretty incredible how relevant it is.”
Born Winona Laura Horowitz in 1971 in a town called, yes, Winona, she was in part drawn to the history in The Plot Against America because of her own heritage. She is Jewish: “Not religious but I do identify. It’s a hard thing for me to talk about because I had family who died in the camps, so I’ve always been fascinated with that time.” Has she experienced anti-semitism herself? “I have … in interesting ways. There are times when people have said, ‘Wait, you’re Jewish? But you’re so pretty!’ There was a movie that I was up for a long time ago, it was a period piece and the studio head, who was Jewish, said I looked ‘too Jewish’ to be in a blueblooded family.” The real jaw-dropper, however, involves, wait for it, Mel Gibson. “We were at a crowded party with one of my good friends and Mel Gibson was smoking a cigar; and we’re all talking and he said to my friend, who’s gay, ‘Oh wait, am I gonna get Aids?’ And then something came up about Jews, and he said, ‘You’re not an oven-dodger, are you?’” She shakes her head, incredulously. (Gibson apparently “tried” to apologise at a later date.)
Ah, Hollywood. Ryder grew up in the film industry of the 1980s and 1990s, when sexism, bullying, racism and homophobia were normalised, a time before #Metoo and holding the industry to account. I read her a quote from an old interview she gave when she was 19, in which she describes “50 photographers” trying to trip her as she got off a plane, while calling her “a whore”. “I remember that,” she says today. “I was flying back from Florida, doing Edward Scissorhands and they actually did trip me. It really messed me up. I was so paranoid. It was hard, especially for a really private person. I had to learn a lot of lessons early on.”
Teen stardom, a relentless schedule, no wonder she eventually had what she now calls a meltdown. “I think I worked so hard, then I started getting really, really tired. It was definitely exhaustion and the first break-up [with Depp], and kind of that identity crisis.” She suffered anxiety attacks but she hasn’t had one “for a long time”. This was an era before the phrase “mental health” was part of the national conversation. Did therapy work for her? “Definitely. I had a great therapist,” although “he retired a few months later”, she says, mock crying. She admits she wasn’t always treated equally in the industry and had some bad experiences, but Ryder says she was “never really traumatised or anything like that”. Certainly she was “a little headstrong”: when her agent suggested she turn down Heathers, the film that made her, she ditched the agent and went ahead with the film. Aged 17.
People have sort of stopped pressuring me to get on social media because they know I’ve worked really hard to have this life for myself.
— Winona Ryder
Today she is grateful she didn’t come of age during the time of social media. Ryder is a tech Luddite and has never signed up to any platform, despite “firm suggestions” from industry people that it would help her career. She feels protective of the child actors on Stranger Things. “I worry about them a lot, because it’s so overwhelming. Social media can be so isolating. I’ve watched people get really upset and go into real depressions because of it, actors who get, what do you call it, ‘tro …?’” Trolled, I tell her. “When I hear ‘followers’, I think of Charles Manson, and when I hear ‘viral’, I think of a virus,” she laughs. I am not sure she could withstand a Twitter storm or cancel culture — although who can? “People have sort of stopped pressuring me to get on social media because they know I’ve worked really hard to have this life for myself,” she says quietly. “I’m a fan of mystery.”
When asked about her boyfriend, the handsome, silver-haired Scott Mackinlay Hahn, who she is currently spending lockdown with, she becomes pointedly monosyllabic, polite but firm. He is a co-founder of the “sustainable apparel brand” Loomstate and they have reportedly been dating for about nine years, with Ryder going only so far as to say that the secret to their relationship is “friendship”.
Her bohemian intellectual parents, Michael and Cynthia (LSD guru Timothy Leary was Winona’s godfather and beat poet Allen Ginsberg was another friend of her parents), have been married for 50 years and still “giggle and make out”. She is close to them — she has never had children herself — and misses them like crazy — they live in Vancouver. “It’s awful. They don’t know how to use Zoom. They have flip phones and a landline. Normally, I’d be up there right now.”
Ryder will be 50 next year, although when I tell her this, it seems to come as a surprise. “No, 49! No, wait, wait, no, you’re right,” she says, eyes widening. How does it feel? “God, I … [her voice drops] Yeah … I’m 50 … [she trails off] Is that, like, a little bit older than middle age?” she asks me, as if it’s suddenly just dawned on her that she’s not 28 anymore. She has, she says, noticed that when she overhears the younger kids talking to someone about her, “They say, ‘She’s a really nice lady,’ and just the word ‘lady’ …” We both start laughing. “I know, right?”
Still, she looks as girlish as she always has: that gamine face, eyes ringed with black kohl. What’s her secret? Botox? Green juices? A picture stored away in the attic?
“If you met my parents, I look like both of them and I was really lucky genetically,” she says. She has always been “really waify” and “never had to exercise”, although in the past few years she has panicked slightly and bought a Pilates machine on the recommendation of her sister. “It’s the classic thing, when you’re young and people are, like, ‘Wait till you get older,’ and then you hit, like, 42 and your back starts … I wish I had listened. You can be waify and really out-of-shape. So I’m trying to incorporate some strengthening stuff. You still have to exercise, you have to look after the bones.”
She used to suffer from insomnia but these days, she says, she has “come to understand I’m just a very nocturnal person”. Bedtime is, I am shocked to hear, normally about 3.30am, which she admits is difficult when she is working. What about “wellness”? I am relieved that it isn’t her thing; when I ask her to forgive me for getting
“all Gwyneth Paltrow”, she laughs, perhaps a little too hard. (The two were friends in the 1990s before a rumoured fall-out.) Her idea of self-care is a good book — reading is a constant theme in our conversation, and I come away with about four book recommendations, like the indie version of Richard and Judy’s book club — and the occasional martini. She used to smoke but gave up years ago. As for tweakments, there is a lot of pressure to get stuff done, but she isn’t interested: “People almost say it like it’s a hygiene thing but I don’t like how it looks. I’m a little too fearful that it could go wrong.”
Fashion has always been in thrall to Ryder, but seemingly more so of late. “Why Winona Ryder’s 90s style still rules!” screamed one recent headline. They’re not wrong: vintage Ryder is a captivating mix of all-black gothic glamour and off-duty masculine tailoring, like a Depop account come to life. She is bemused by the nostalgia — little wonder when the world still sees you, stuck in time, as a leather-jacketed, Johnny Depp-dating teenager. (For the record, she and Depp still speak.) She seems alarmed when I ask her if she ever looks back and thinks, “Crikey, I was cool.” “No! No! God, there are terrible pictures of me out there, wearing terrible things,” she says. Unsure of where those pictures are, I ask if she was dressed by designers. “Giorgio Armani would give me suits, kind of like men’s suits … Everything I had was black. And it still is.” She is a big collector of vintage T-shirts: “There’s this one picture of me in a Tom Waits T-shirt and a leather jacket at the premiere of The Commitments — I still have that T-shirt.” In fact, she says she has more than a thousand band T-shirts, including ones inherited from Allen Ginsberg.
There is one thing from the 1990s that has most definitely stood the test of time, however, and that is her friendship with Keanu Reeves. I tell her I watched Destination Wedding the previous night, the 2018 rom-com they both starred in. “Really?” she says, eyes rolling. “It got the worst reviews,” she laughs. She has a “buffer” system with her parents, whereby she gets them to read reviews first and then send them to her “but that movie, for some reason, every reviewer was like, ‘This is the worst movie in the world,’ and it was really rough.”
She has done four movies with Reeves; she grins when she talks about him. “I love Keanu. We’re great friends. I miss him so much and it’s hard because he’s not far, just over there,” she points wistfully out of the window. Maybe she could go for a socially distanced walk with him? She seems unsure: “That’s the hardest thing, I don’t know with this virus, can you just go over and …?” Winona, for the love of God, go and sit in Keanu’s garden. Please. Okay, “I’m going to call Keanu!” she says, brightening.
Perhaps her friendship with Reeves is down to the fact that not many people can understand what it’s like to have been through the Hollywood machine and come out the other side. Ryder is that rare thing, the child star who made it. She acknowledges that it was tough: “There was pressure around transitioning from ingenue to older, and people were, like, ‘A lot of people don’t make it, you know’ and they really drove it home.” Not only that, but she has also seen others who did not make it, in other ways. “We’ve lost a lot of young actors that I knew and worked with,” she says thoughtfully.
Is she happier now, at 48, than she was at, say, 28? “I didn’t like my 30s,” she admits. “My 30s were more like my 20s. I have really liked my 40s.” She smiles, eyes creasing: “It’s like that line from The First Wives Club, there’s only three roles, ‘babe, district attorney and Driving Miss Daisy’. So finding the roles in between that carry me …” she drifts off. “And now I’m the mum!” she laughs, delighted.
The Plot Against America is on Neon.
The Documentary Edge International Film Festival has catered well to you film buffs who are all about that hermit life by going fully online this year. It all comes to an end with the official closing film, The Cordillera of Dreams, the Best Documentary award-winner at Cannes. It’s the third film in Patricio Guzman’s trilogy and explores the relationship between historical memory, political trauma, and geography in Chile. If that doesn’t float your boat, there are plenty of other films on the programme, including A Thousand Cuts, Blood on the Wall, A Chef’s Voyage, Bare and #UNFIT: A Psychological Thriller. Light the fire, prepare the Milo, grab your nana blanket and cosy up for hours of world-class documentaries from the comfort of your own home.
Streaming today and tomorrow, various times. See docedge.nz for the full schedule. Tickets $11 from eventfinda.co.nz
If the past few months have had you aching for some live music, you can get a classical fix with the Nztrio. Origins is the first in a three-concert series featuring Amalia Hall on violin, Ashley Brown on cello and Somi Kim on piano. The programme begins with Beethoven’s Ghost and includes the premiere of Prema Lahari by New Zealander Sarah Ballard, as well as Piano Trio by Alexander von Zemlinsky, a Jewish-muslim whose work inspires understanding and love. You can hibernate another time — get out and support our local musicians.
Tomorrow, 5pm. Concert Chamber, Auckland Town Hall, Auckland Central. Tickets $25-$50 from aucklandlive.co.nz
Thank your Matariki stars events are back at Auckland Museum just in time for the holidays. There’s the Secret Museum Tour, where a guide takes you through the secret doors marked “Staff Only” or “No Entry” to see where all the many objects that aren’t on display are kept and how they’re cared for. The Antarctica Experience is back, offering a virtual reality trip to the South Pole from a helicopter cockpit and cruising icy waters. Or go on a Wildlife Selfie Safari, tracking down wild animals throughout the museum.
Various times. Auckland Museum, Auckland Domain, Parnell. See aucklandmuseum.com for the full schedule of events and to book tickets.
If you’ve woken up to the shocking realisation that the school holidays have arrived and you’ve got nothing planned, you might empathise with the Eastern
Pacific Green Turtle at Kelly Tarlton’s, who is suffering from exhaustion, dehydration and low body temperature. Found stranded on Takapuna Beach a few weeks ago, the turtle had a check-up from the specialist vet team at Auckland Zoo and has since been receiving treatment in the Kelly Tarlton’s Turtle Rehabilitation Centre. Thousands of miles from its native home in the waters surrounding Costa Rica and the Galapagos Islands, the turtle is now well enough to enter Turtle Bay at the aquarium, where you can admire the 26kg reptile before it is released back into the ocean.
Today until July 19, 9.30am-5pm (last entry 4pm). Kelly Tarlton’s, 23 Tamaki Drive, Orakei. Book online at kellytarltons.co.nz for a 20 per cent discount.
Seasonal Affective Disorder may have you feeling blue, which is all the more reason to get up from your desk chair (or couch) on Wednesday lunchtimes and Friday evenings for live music at Aotea Centre. There’s a whole range of musical styles scheduled to perform over the coming months including DJS Bobby Brazuka and Tina Turntables as well as the Auckland City Brass Quintet and the Auckland Philharmonia Orchestra. Presented by Auckland Live, the lunchtime concerts will be in the foyer of Aotea Centre, live-streamed on Facebook and the Auckland Live Digital Stage in Aotea Square. Fill your puku with a $10 homecooked lunch from Box Cafe and Bar, or grab a drink at their happy hour on Fridays, when the DJS will be spinning beats.
There’s no excuse for not knowing what Matariki is all about when Auckland Libraries have a wealth of resources, along with free events for you and your whanau. Across Tamaki Makaurau are Matariki-inspired school holiday activities like spectroscope crafts, light-painting, crystal making, starlight projector making, Matariki fried breadmaking and loads more. Check with your local library to see what they’ve got on their schedule or head to the libraries’ website and check out the city-wide programme. Various dates and times. Auckland Libraries.
See aucklandlibraries.govt.nz
Wednesdays 12.30pm-1.15pm, Fridays 5pm-7pm. Aotea Centre, Auckland CBD.
Take the tamariki along to Smales Farm these holidays to search for the seven stars that form the Matariki cluster. There are seven giant illuminated stars by light designer Angus Muir hidden on site. It’s a fun way to teach your children a little more about te ao Maori and take some time to honour the traditions of tangata whenua. Before, after or during your hunt, you can grab some kai from Goodside and, if you go at night, look for the real deal Matariki cluster in the night sky overhead.