ECOWAS’ stand on Niger not dictated by France — Amb Tuggar

Nigeria/Niger relationship solid We’re working towards common currency in W/Africa Our stand for 2-state solution in Palestine best way out

Ambassador Yusuf Abubakar Tuggar is Nigeria’s Minister of Foreign Affairs. In this interview on Trust TV’s 30 Minutes with Mannir DanAli, he spoke on a wide range of issues, including the decisions taken by the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) on Niger, border closure and diplomacy.

Ibelieve the last few days have been a bit frantic. There have been the ECOWAS Summit, and the big issue is Niger. Where are we now because it appears as if Nigeria and ECOWAS have been forced to a climb down from their initial position?

I wouldn’t exactly put it that way. We have to bear in mind that the primary, or should I say the reason for the creation of ECOWAS, is regional integration, harmony, peace and the general security of the region. So, ECOWAS is always looking to do what is required to bring that about. What has transpired with regards to Niger is simply to take pragmatic steps towards once again a resolution of the current situation there.

The operative word here seems to be pragmatic. You are being realistic, you are now kind of forced to recognise the new military government in Niger because you are talking of sending mediators, people who will engage with them; includingt the Presidents of Togo and Benin. So, why did ECOWAS have to eat the humble pie; so to say?

It’s not a matter of eating a humble pie. It is again a matter of pragmatism. What transpired immediately after President Bazoum was accosted was pragmatic as well.

The leaders of ECOWAS got together and took certain measures. They demanded his release, they demanded that he continues as president, they imposed sanctions, and of course the fact that they mentioned as a last resort the use of force was not ruled out was blown out of proportion.

Of course there are so many interests within. Some misinterpreted that to mean that Nigeria in particular was about to declare war on Niger. The whole thing was blown out of proportion.

But these are measures. We’re not talking about one country, we’re talking about several countries.

Is this particular incident a sort of learning curve for you and for the administration, because we’re just a few months old when this happened, and it appears like a hot potato that you are looking for ways to get rid of?

It’s the nature of life as a whole. We’re always learning, but I wouldn’t put it exactly like you did because the decision was not a unilateral decision by Nigeria; it was a collective decision of ECOWAS.

But some were saying that it’s like

ECOWAS and Nigeria were trying to do the bidding of maybe France, the US and all those international do gooders who wouldn’t put their troops on the line?

When have you ever seen Nigeria do the bidding of an external power?

Probably this particular instance?

This is a country; you can’t even try to do that. Government is not exclusive of the rest of the country. So, when you’re talking about foreign policy, it’s a completely different area.

Foreign policy is formulated based on an aggregation of the position of a country and is not limited to the leader at the time, it’s not limited to the government, but the country as a whole.

You’re talking about interest groups, you’re talking about scholars, you’re talking about even the populace, the business community and so on and so forth. Let’s not reduce it to just an individual or to just a government.

I don’t see the connection, this is just playing into the hands of the propagandists that decided in order to remain in power, in order to sustain themselves, to label anybody you know it was a manikin approach.

If you’re not supporting what we did then you’re doing the bidding of France, and Nigeria has never been that way. You’re talking about a nation that nationalised Shell, you and I are old enough to know that Shell, British Petroleum….

But those are different administrations. This administration is better known for…?

Are we not the same people? I the foreign minister, was my world view not formed by growing up during that period when all of these took place.

Certainly it was?

And so then I will go through all of that in life and then wake up one day and then start taking orders from France. That does not make sense, that is pure propaganda, and it was just most unfortunate that certain sections of the country and even the media played into that.

So, is it more charitable to say that the administration, yourself and ECOWAS were influenced by the feeling, especially in Northern Nigeria which communities share a lot with the Nigeriens, that now kind of shaped your reconsideration so that now we are talking of engaging with the regime?

No, I think you have to read the ECOWAS communiqué. The ECOWAS communiqué on Niger number one says Bazoum must be released. In fact, not just Bazoum, his family and his associates.

But it was silent on him being President of Niger again?

Yeah! Because you know that once you know time having lapsed like I said, ECOWAS is being pragmatic. Time has lapsed, and in order to diffuse the tension, the prevailing situation, ECOWAS is not insisting that Bazoum has to be returned. ECOWAS has changed position on that, but ECOWAS has not changed its position on saying Bazoum and his family and his associates must be released.

ECOWAS has not changed its position on saying that unless that happens, the sanctions will not be removed.

Finally, ECOWAS is also saying that unless all of these things happen, it is not ruling out the use of force.

Let’s leave all of that aside, what we’re looking for is peace. We have always maintained a very close and friendly relation with Niger, we’re not in conflict with the people of Niger. In fact, we are doing this for the people of Niger. That was why Nigeria and ECOWAS took this position.

With this hard line position, how do you see the resolution of this problem?

It is not a hard line position, it’s a pragmatic position, and this is something that we’ve been saying to the Nigerien junta all along.

But they are saying that people like you and others are the ones blocking any resolution of the problem?

Because the position they took was that unless you’re going to acquiesce to what they want; which is simply remove the sanctions and then they decide how long they’re going to stay and what happens to Bazoum and his children they don’t care.

But what we are saying to them is to release Bazoum and his family and then we start removing the sanctions.

But they are not prepared to do that because the very same people that were playing this game with them within Nigeria and outside of Nigeria were giving them hope that they could pick and choose who to engage either within Nigeria, even within the Nigerian government, and that there was hope that they could bring pressure to bear inside Nigeria to compel the government to change its position and to compel ECOWAS to change its position because President Bola Ahmed Tinubu happens to be leading ECOWAS at this time.

It is a very dangerous game. They were offering money to people....

But Niger is a very poor country. Where is it getting money, I mean many Western countries have closed the taps, stopped aids and all sorts of things. So, if it is money, don’t you think it is Nigeria that will be offering money?

I think you should direct that question to them because I cannot speak on their behalf, but certainly we have proof, concrete proof that they were offering money to people. There were certain people in Niger that were offering money to people here to agitate for the removal of sanctions, to put pressure, to put pressure on the Nigerian government to

compel ECOWAS to remove the sanctions.

Now that the summit has held and three heads of state have been been nominated to go and engage, when is that engagement going to begin?

Right away; it’s already started.

They’ve gone to Niger and sat with the military rulers?

I can’t disclose too much information on that because, you see, part of the problem again, why negotiations did not succeed when we made certain attempts was because everything was being reported in the media and social media.

And maybe it’s the fact of life now in the 21st Century kind of society, where very few things are hidden?

No, it’s not. I’m sure you know when you’re at home in bed and you’re snoring that is not being reported in Daily Trust. So, there are a lot of things, a lot of the activities. In fact, I think in your life maybe 80 per cent of what happens is not reported, and you’re even a reporter.

How do you see, especially the relationship between the ageold relationship between Nigeria and Niger after this might have passed, because it appears that we have been robbing each other the wrong way or at least at the level of government, maybe not at the level of communities?

It’s good you made that differentiation. I think it will continue to be a good relation between Nigeria and Niger because the overwhelming majority of Nigerians, and not just in the Northern part of Nigeria, all over Nigeria and indeed all over Niger, have a close affinity and they’ve always supported each other. On the global stage, in international organisations, with the trade across our borders, cultural affinity, all of that make it almost impossible for us not to get along with each other.

Your government inherited a lot of closed borders, not just with Niger, but with other neighbouring countries, is it your government’s intention to review this because you are talking of improving the economy and then you have shut borders that are very useful for inter-African and neighbourly trade. Is it something that you

are considering looking at again?

That I think has long passed because I think one of the early visits, early trips that I took as foreign minister, was to go to Cotonou for a meeting of the Abidjan-Lagos corridor. That’s why I said it’s important that we look at the entire communiqué issued by ECOWAS after the summit.

If you read it you will see that the Abidjan-Lagos corridor is mentioned there. The fact that there was a meeting, there were agreements, we are talking about removal of tariffs and taking different measures to ensure that trade and movement of goods, services and people is seamless across the borders.

Are saying the border between Nigeria and Benin is now open?

There are certain checkpoints, but we’re working on removing those checkpoints. with

What about those Cameroon and Chad?

We are equally working on that, but our primary focus of course for now is ECOWAS resolving the issues since we have a regional economic community, we want it to function properly. Which is not to say that we’re not working on the others.

We’ve been talking about it for decades and it keeps being pushed ahead. Are you not also going to kick it down the road?

You can see that from the communiqué if you read it.

What about another nonAfrican country that a lot of Nigerians are interested in going or in trading with, that’s the United Arab Emirates (UAE). There was an announcement some months back that President

Tinubu has cracked the nut of visa but it turned out not to be exactly true; where are we on that, when can ordinary Nigerians expect a resumption of that particular visa issuance?

It’s a process. Sometimes when you meet and you agree that yes we have both agreed to resolve a problem but there are certain steps that have to be taken.

But it was a presidential statement that raised the hope, it was the president’s spokesman who issued a statement saying the president had solved this problem?

Maybe there a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of what he was trying to communicate, but the issue here is that there is an agreement to work on this and there are steps to be taken before finally having the visas being issued.

And incidentally visas are still being issued, it’s not that there is no Nigerian that is allowed that is not allowed to go. was

Of course, over a thousand Nigerians were at the COP meeting in Dubai, which is....?

Yes, and then again the media jumped the gun and said oh look Nigerian government has taken over a thousand people, no. You know yourself that you can go online.

Officials came out and said 400 plus people from Nigeria went and many people joined meetings via zoom.

You can go online, yeah sometimes you know these meetings require physical presence because there are negotiations. I don’t know whether zoom is the most secure means of negotiating, you don’t know who is listening.

So, sometimes you have to go physically to engage, but that is not even a decision of the Nigerian government, you have a lot of Civil Society Organisations (CSOs), you’ve got the media, you’ve got all sorts of....

But they were not part of the 400 plus that the government admitted?

It wasn’t 400 that was reported, it was over a thousand.

Yes, it was reported over a thousand from Nigerians, but the government said over 400 or so were funded from the government’s coffers at a time when many Nigerians cannot eat?

Which government, because even governors were there, do they not have a right to sponsor people. When you say government you must not reduce everything to the federal government.

How many states are threatened by climate change here in Nigeria, there are so many. Apart from the border states, the states that border the Sahara, you have states that are affected by flooding, you have coastal states. So, you need to investigate to find out how many of those states sponsored people out of the 400.

It’s part of our reporting almost on a daily basis, but if we go back to the visa issue, you said there is a process, is there a time frame or is it indefinite?

It’s something that’s being worked on and it changes, and when there are changes, we are pragmatic.

So, probably before the end of this administration?

Certainly. I don’t think either side wants to wait another three, four years before this issue is resolved.

But it’s not somewhere near, maybe a couple of weeks?

It’s somewhere near. I cannot tell you whether it’s weeks or months, I’m not in a position to do that.

Why is Nigeria a bit quiet compared to say South Africa over the Israeli-Palestine issue?

Quiet?

Yes, because Nigeria doesn’t appear to have been making...?

I was one of the seven ministers of foreign affairs that were going to world capitals meeting with leaders, trying to compel them to stand by a ceasefire and a peace conference to resolve the IsraeliPalestine conflict.

Tell me if the South African foreign minister was one of those seven?

No, South Africa did much more than that, it recalled its ambassador, it also sent the Israeli ambassador back home. So, it’s taken more proactive publicly viewed stance and Nigeria seems...?

I was there with the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, with the Palestinian organisations authorities’ foreign minister, with the foreign minister of Egypt, foreign minister of Jordan, foreign minister of Indonesia, we were the ones that were going round, so it’s not just about making pronouncements or withdrawing your ambassador; that is not where the work is. The work is in negotiations and seeking results.

You see, again you’re going back to this selfish diplomacy; that’s not what this is all about. Diplomacy is about negotiations, diplomacy is about convincing people to see your viewpoint and implement measures that will bring about peace.

So, how do you see the Nigerian point of view, this shuttle diplomacy that you said you’ve done; how do you see it succeeding when countries like the US can just sit and veto whatever decision the majority or all other countries have taken at the UN?

We are working with others. These things are gradual, it does not happen overnight. Don’t forget that the only country that vetoed in the United Nations Security Council is the US.

In fact, for the first time maybe in a long while, even the United Kingdom did not vote along with the United States, it abstained. So, we’re making progress.

And the United Nations Security Council is not the only platform that is being used to bring about pressure on Israel to implement the ceasefire.

If you read it you will see that the Abidjan-Lagos corridor is mentioned there. The fact that there was a meeting, there were agreements, we are talking about removal of tariffs and taking different measures to ensure that trade and movement of goods, services and people is seamless across the borders

In 30 seconds, can you tell me what will be the Tuggar initiative in foreign policy; I mean we had Bolaji Akinyemi’s concept of medium power and what have you, what will be yours, is it the 4D you mentioned?

It’s 4D, it belongs to President Bola Ahmed Tinubu’s administration, and it’s democracy, it’s development, it’s demography, it’s diaspora, and I can expatiate on all of these four, so it’s not just a slogan.

Tuggar

Tuggar