We Must Save LGs From Middlemen – Dogara
The Speaker of the House of Representatives, Yakubu Dogara, in this interview with newsmen in Abuja, explained issues bordering on the face-off between the Legislature and the Executive. He also spoke on local government autonomy and other contending issu
Your Excellency, the perception is that the Executive and the Legislature are not on the same page, what is your disposition on this?
As politicians, sometimes we don’t attack the issues frontally. Well, let me say that from the foundation of the principle of separation of powers, it was never anticipated that the Legislature and the Executive would work harmoniously on a continuous basis. There would always be frictions. Where you have human and individual factors, even in a family, there is bound to be conflicts.
In the relationship between the Executive and the Legislature there will be conflicts. The only problem is that sometimes we cast conflicts as intricately bad. Conflicts may not be bad. As a matter of fact, sometimes conflicts are necessary for progress to be made. If you have a collection of conformists, chances are that they will never make progress. Even if they do, it will always relate to an existing order that is sustained over time. For you to have innovation and progress, people must be free to disagree. It is only in disagreeing that progress is made. When the Legislature disagrees with the Executive it is viewed as conflict. In most cases that is the interpretation.
In the 8th Assembly we have had issues - certain issues that have pitched the Executive against the Legislature, and we will continue to have them. But the point is that as leaders, how do we interpret these issues? How do we overcome these issues in such a way that they lead to progress and advancement instead of retrogression? My take, even as I’ve said that these conflicts will continue, is that the man who propounded the doctrine of separation of powers saw clearly through the lenses of time that these kinds of frictions would take place.
We may have conflicts, but it shouldn’t endure to the level that it offsets the friendly relationship with the Executive, which is necessary to deliver on the goals of governance. That is key. In the House in particular, we have been working in that fashion. If there are difficulties or frictions we leverage on our training as leaders to overcome them for the general good, not just to promote ego, personal interests or sentiments, which will always lead to clashes among individuals and arms of government.
Almost two years into the administration of the All Progressives Congress (APC), would you say that your party has not disappointed Nigerians?
I wouldn’t say that we have disappointed Nigerians. For you to come to that kind of conclusion you would have to take certain factors into consideration. Now, what was it that we met on ground? What is it that we have improved upon as a government? And what is it that we are seeking to do? I guess it is after looking at the whole gamut of these issues that you will be able to arrive at the decision whether we have disappointed Nigerians or not.
You can’t talk of disappointment in a nature that is a value judgement. This is because it depends on expectation. It is only having an expectation that you can be disappointed. I can say that a lot has been achieved, even though unsung in most cases, in the context of our society. People want to see first-class roads, hospitals; they want to see the tangibles, but nobody places value on the intangibles.
For us that come from the North-East, even some of us that live and work in Abuja, remember how dire this issue of terrorism was. We were all living on the throes of violence. The police headquarters here was bombed; the United Nations (UN) Mission here in Abuja was bombed; bombs exploded in Kaduna; Kano; Jos; in Nyanya as well, and there was even the threat of this mayhem being exported to the South-West and other regions of this country.
If you look at it, we have exited from that. The biggest problem of democracy is that, with violence you cannot take the benefits of democracy. The presidential democracy we practise has three promises: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The number one responsibility of government is the security and welfare of the citizens. That was what our democracy was failing to do - the basic and constitutional guarantee of governance. We couldn’t provide security. We have gone very far in trying to tackle this issue of insurgency. As a matter of fact, all hostile spots have been liberated.
This government, through various interventions, has been able to ensure that the terrorists are not holding unto any spot of land. I believe this is one major thing that has given some hope to Nigerians. For the very first time, we are in a position to overcome this problem. And it is critical, even if it is for nothing else that our citizens in the North-East zone, down to Abuja, can move around more freely than before. That is something.
What is your take on the conflict between the Senate and the Customs CG?
The whole issue that gave rise to this conflict was that the Comptroller-General of Customs should appear before the Senate in uniform to talk about issues surrounding the policy of collecting duties on cars purchased long ago. The only thing was that he should appear in uniform, but the CG said no. I ask you what the view of your newspaper on this is. Not what the Senate is saying, but what the law says about the CG wearing the uniform or not? If we continue to have these kinds of debates, we may not even have to engage in the kind of fights
we have in the parliament because by the time all newspapers come up with their opinions, a lot of people will be educated on the position, and it saves this institution from clashing.
So you have to look at all these issues before you come to a conclusion. As far as I am concerned, these are mere distractions. They are not supposed to be. The main issue is delivery. What is it that we are delivering? But for a decision to be made in line with what the Senate proposed to the House, you can only wait till the matter comes before the House and that decision will be taken and Nigerians will know.
The House seems to be playing a mediatory role between Senate and the Executive.
I won’t call the role of the House of Representatives mediation as such. I said that our principle was cooperation with the Senate so that together we could achieve more. We will also cooperate with the Executive, where we will disagree and agree. But in most areas, we should look for ways of cooperating instead of fighting. And it mustn’t be the House that mediates. It can be all the key players in the system, whether it’s the Senate mediating in an issue that concerns the House and the Executive or some other persons in the Executive mediating in the relationship between the Executive and the Legislature.
This is not even called mediation, but consultation and compromise, which is key when you further expound the doctrine of checks and balance. We must always meet, talk to each other, reduce areas of conflicts and where there are conflicts, we will overcome them. Like I said, however, there will always be conflicts, but what distinguishes us as leaders is whether we overcome those conflicts or we are overcome by them. That is what we cannot allow. The House will go to any length to talk to anybody in the Senate, in the Executive so that we can forge an atmosphere that is convenient to work. So it is part of the work we do as leaders, and as institutions of government we should encourage more consultations and dialogues, especially on issues.
Is there corruption in the House of Representatives?
I know we have promised to open the books, and we will definitely open the books. I, however, don’t know in what form the corruption is said to be. But let me first say that the Parliament is not something that exists outside Nigeria. And the issue of corruption itself is not something that can be eliminated completely. What you can do is to reduce it to the barest minimum, to a level that is almost seen as non-existent.
It’s not that corruption has been eliminated in the advanced countries we try so much to copy or speak glowingly of what they have been able to achieve. We have seen this hydra-headed monster called corruption rearing its head even in elections of certain jurisdictions. Clearly, the signs are there, but our collective effort is that we reduce it to the barest minimum. I lack the English word to describe anyone who thinks he would eliminate corruption. To eliminate it will amount to eliminating the totality of the human race. This is because no human being is clothed in perfection. All we can do is to reduce it to the barest minimum.
I cannot say you would trace any iota of corruption in the affairs of the National Assembly. Honestly speaking, there could be cases. The point is that they should be properly apportioned punishments when we discover them, not just to express dissent. There should be appropriate punishments capable of deterring prospective offenders. Concerning the issue of budget, we all know that the National Assembly does not command more than 2% of the national budget - budget for infrastructure whether they are for bridges or building of hospitals. It is not embedded in the National Assembly budget. The entire 98% of our nation’s resources is not spent by the National Assembly, but by other arms of government. But sometimes, the focus of our citizens is on that less than 2% as if that is the bane of our progress in this country, as if, if we use the money for the National Assembly Nigeria would just become an advanced nation. It bothers me a lot that where you have 98% resources, nobody bothers about it. Maybe we have grown used to the belief that monies meant for housing, bridges, hospitals and agriculture can be misappropriated, but it’s just that 2% they give to the National Assembly that nothing must happen to it.
For us, since we represent the people, we get their opinions and represent them here. The people have said they want to know what we do with the entire budget that comes to the National Assembly. It’s not a problem. We have directed the management, and hopefully, with the 2017 budget, this issue will come to rest.
Each agency that draws from the money appropriated for the National Assembly has been mandated to bring its budget, and at the end of the day, when we are done, everything will be published. I can guarantee that. So we can end this discussion. When people see it, even if we are getting it wrong in any section, we will not run away from wise counsel.
Sometimes it’s even your members that raise the red flag, like the issue of padding by Abdulmumin Jibril?
Well, that is why it is good to engage in investigative journalism. We have so many journalists as friends; they can ask. For instance, they say members are paid N10 million a month; is it true? He was unable to bring forth evidence. He should have brought documents. He is a member, he should have brought his bank documents to prove what he was being paid. Very simple. But there was no shred of evidence to back any claim, other than I have said it. I can say anything, and you know you can’t convict on the basis of one witness if you read Law, except in the exceptional case of the confession of a dying man. On that basis someone could be convicted because: what is the motive for somebody dying to tell lies? So that is the only condition in law when you can safely convict someone on the testimony of one person without corroboration from another witness or documents. To elaborate, a man must be certified dead for his confession to be binding. If he survives, it goes back to the jurisprudence of having witnesses to substantiate.
How do you think the government should tackle the case of rising crime rate in the country?
The president made it very clear that whether kidnappers, herdsmen or whoever is in the act of terrorism, they should be grouped as one. Anyone waging war against innocent citizens of the country must be dealt with squarely as if he was a terrorist. I don’t see the distinction between whoever is waging war against Nigerians or unleashing terror on innocent Nigerians. Their description doesn’t matter.
Most of these people coming to unleash terror on Nigerians aren’t Nigerians themselves. So these are serious security challenges that would be met with the same kind of force shown against Boko Haram and other terrorists. There is no distinction. Boko Haram makes war against innocent Nigerians, and anyone that makes war against innocent Nigerians or takes up arms against the country should be squarely dealt with. That is our position as a parliament. We have said it frequently and we will keep re-echoing that.
Is it possible that under your leadership, the constitution could be amended to ensure local government autonomy?
The current system is not working, and we cannot keep sticking to it and expecting it to work someday. I don’t know who termed it as the very definition of foolishness - to keep doing the same thing and expect different outcomes. It has become a system where some have constituted themselves into middlemen. They grab the resources meant for the development of the grassroots and appropriate it the way they deem fit.
There is a twin evil of state independent electoral commissions that gave birth to this. It is a total mockery of democracy for elections to hold even in the local government and you say one political party won all the seats. I have never seen where democracy is mocked like in Nigerian local government elections. I don’t know how we can continue to mock ourselves that we are practising democracy at the third tier of government. We all know the reason for the insistence that one political party will win all councillors and local government chairmen seats. This happens so that as the middlemen are hijacking, there would be no voice of descent.
This is the bane of development in Nigeria. It will take a general resolve from Nigerians, including journalists, civil society organisations and local government staff members to insist that when this bill is submitted to state assemblies, they must pass it. If that doesn’t happen, I’m telling you to forget about the third tier of government because we don’t have anything at that tier. And nothing good will come out of it because it has failed. When we do this, we will be able to free members of state assembly from the near stranglehold control of the governors.
It is only through effective oversight of resources that go to states and local governments that we can make progress in this country. If you look at VAT, for instance; what is it that goes to the Federal Government? Fifteen per cent. The rest goes to states and local governments. And once you push it there, it is as good as you just pushing it down the drain. So a lot of resources are being wasted at this level. It is good that the president has spoken about this.
I remember he said in his inaugural speech that he wouldn’t have kept his own trust with the people if he had let those under him abuse theirs. Now, some people are abusing this, so Mr. President would also have to come into the fray to ensure that we free this local government system from the states. If that is not done, it is a massive failure.
The entire 98% of our nation’s resources is not spent by the National Assembly, but by other arms of government. But sometimes, the focus of our citizens is on that less than 2% as if that is the bane of our progress in this country, as if, if we use the money for the National Assembly Nigeria would just become an advanced nation