So Many Questions

ANC veteran and former cabinet minister Ronnie Kasrils has called on people not to vote for the ANC. Chris Barron asks him. . .

How are you going to be voting?

I will vote for a party on the ballot paper.

Not for the ANC?

No, I will not be voting for the ANC.

Are you still a member of the ANC?

No, not formally.

Do you support the government?

No, I no longer support it.

Would you like to see it returned?

With a reduced majority, yes.

So it is so bad that you’ve told people not to vote for it, but you want it to remain in power?

Certainly I wouldn’t want to see the Democratic Alliance become the ruling party in this country.

Why not?

Because it is totally committed to the free market economy and it has got people in its ranks who very firmly come out of the very bad past.

Too many Nats?

Yes.

Like (ANC cabinet minister) Marthinus van Schalkwyk?

I believe firmly . . .

You were in government with an ex-Nat but you don’t want the DA in power because they’ve got former Nats?

You’re talking about one particular minister. That is very small-fry stuff. I want to say that I greatly respect Helen Zille and she has done a great deal for that party, but it is not just about one person.

What about all the young, upcoming black leaders in the DA?

I think that is a very positive sign and I welcome that, and I put it down to the way Zille has been leading that party.

But you don’t have confidence in them?

I am worried about their economic policy. Although it accords with the way the ANC’s economic policy has been going, I think there is room, if there can be a revolt within the ANC, to move to the left. But not within the DA.

Isn’t democracy about giving another party a chance if one party has been at it for 20 years and failed?

Absolutely. If the electorate voted for the DA or any other party, I would absolutely respect that. Nelson Mandela himself said: “If we don’t deliver, they can march against us. They can change government.”

Only if they vote for a party that is a realistic alternative. Would you agree the only such party is the DA?

I don’t support their economic policy at all.

Are you still a communist?

Not in the Communist Party sense.

When did you leave it?

In the same period that I stopped attending meetings of the ANC.

So, until quite recently you’ve been a member of the South African Communist Party?

Not since about 2008, actually.

Did you have problems with the ANC’s economic policy?

Yes. I want to see the ANC reassert its commitments to the Freedom Charter and especially clause three on the issue of public control of the major economic resources of the country.

There has been public control of Eskom and South African Airways and, as you know, they’re bankrupt. But you want more of the same?

Public control must have workers’ participation. The workers must be involved in the running of these companies.

Isn’t that cadre deployment?

Well, that was a very loosely worded term and I think in the implementation it has been disastrous.

Why?

Because people were simply put in positions in which they had no real skills or experience or training.

So where are the workers with all these things you think should be running our companies?

Well, these are human beings who are there, and if you provide the right kind of skills and training then the workers will surprise you. I’m talking about proper workers’ control, which the ANC has never applied properly.

If you’ve never been happy with the ANC, why has it taken so long to come out?

Because we came to accept in 1994 that we should first get political control and then change economic relations . . .

For 14 years you were happy to be a well-paid minister in a government whose economic policy you fundamentally disagreed with?

Sure, I made an error.

Were you intellectually dishonest or just confused?

How on earth can you say that? I absolutely reject that.

Are you saying you should have left the ANC long ago?

No. Under Mandela and Thabo Mbeki there was at least the opportunity of persuading people.

But they embraced an economic policy with which you fundamentally disagreed?

I was prepared to give it a go.

You were happy to be in a government whose economic policy you fundamentally disagreed with, but you won’t vote DA because of its economic policy?

Because I have seen how it has failed internationally.

What about communism?

Well, they made their errors.