Chris Barron

Does the SACP still have a role? It’s got a very big role. What is its role? We need a party-political champion of the working class, which is what we are. This has never been tested at the polls, has it? No. But that’s not the only way we can see if we’re the champions of the working class. We’ve run hugely successful campaigns. And it has made a palpable difference. So why is inequality and poverty worse than ever? Because we’re living in a capitalist society. That is not the fault of the Communist Party, it is the fault of capitalism, which is the system that we are fighting. But you’re in a government that condones state capture? This is not the policy of the ANC government. But it has allowed it to happen? The government has not allowed it to happen. And we are in this government because we still believe it is the best place to advance the interests of the overwhelming majority of our people. So why has it presided over the impoverishment of the people? We have not presided over the impoverishment of the people. Unemployment has climbed to almost 30%. That is not the government’s fault. Why is the financial sector on an investment strike and not investing in productive manufacturing capacity? Perhaps where we can criticise ourselves as government is that we have not had enough political will to redirect resources in the financial sector to be invested in the productive economy. You have agreed that state capture impoverishes the people, so how can you support a president who is part of it? There is nothing proven about that. Would it be possible without the connivance of the president? You are finding the president guilty of something he has not been found guilty of. If there is any case for investigation it must be done through the institutions of the law. Aren’t they too busy intimidating perceived opponents of the president? You can’t make such a generalisation. They have been taking up issues of corruption. The Special Investigating Unit has been doing that, the Hawks have been doing that. Didn’t your own deputy accuse them of using apartheid tactics to intimidate opponents? We have expressed concern that the behaviour of the head of the Hawks is out of order, and we are not going to stand by and watch these institutions being abused. You said the SACP must roll back greed, corruption and selfishness of capitalism. Are you serious? We are serious, yes. Our belief is that capitalism is meant for the few, not for the majority. You mean the few inside and close to the government that you are part of? You can’t say just because there are people who are abusing the state for their own ends, therefore we characterise government like that. How can you say you oppose corruption when you support a president who has 783 charges of corruption against him? There are no charges against the president as things stand now. We can’t say we believe in the rule of law but if there is someone we don’t like we want to short-cut the process. The president is not facing any charges. Only because the National Prosecuting Authority refuses to accept a High Court ruling that they shouldn’t have been dropped. Are you happy with that? We must follow due process. Everybody has a right to legal recourse, including the president. We have an ongoing discussion about our role in the alliance but we still believe it is very relevant. Isn’t the truth that you are too scared to test your support on your own? This is not out of fear, it is out of commitment to the principle of uniting all the forces that . . . What kind of unity is it when the ANC is doing everything it can to marginalise and discredit you? We will continue to seek to engage and unite . . . Even when the ANC is not interested in engaging with you? That is not the case. Isn’t this what your own leadership is saying? Some in the ANC are abusing our loyalty to the movement. But it is not in the interests of the country to have a break-up of the alliance. You said recently the SACP had defended the Treasury. Against whom? Against white monopoly capital, which wants to control the Treasury. But also against the parasitic bourgeois rent seekers who want to loot our state. So you need to defend the Treasury against clients of the president whom you continue to support? We have said we are unhappy about his relationship with the Guptas because the Guptas are abusing that relationship. But we can’t say the president has been found guilty of this or that when he has not.