The crisis of western imagination is a huge challenge
In his first interview since being elected French President, Emmanuel Macron sets out his international agenda on Syria, Donald Trump and the issue of European integration
mmanuel Macron has promised that France will have a strong and pragmatic relationship with a post-Brexit Britain, working together on defence and counter-terrorism because of the two countries’ “linked destinies”. In his first interview since he was elected French President last month, Macron told the Guardian and seven other European papers: “Pragmatism will determine our new relationship” with Britain. Asked if the door really remained open for Britain to go back on Brexit — after his recent remarks, taken as an encouraging sign by opponents of a hard Brexit, that there may be room for compromise — Macron said: “The door is open until the moment you walk through it. It’s not up to me to say it’s closed. But from the moment things are engaged with a timescale and an objective, it’s very hard to go back, we can’t lie to ourselves.”
Strengthening cooperation with UK, post Brexit:
Macron was firm on the Brexit negotiation process that began last week. He said: “I want the discussions that have just started to be perfectly coordinated at a European level. I do not want bilateral discussions, because the interests of the EU [European Union] must be preserved in the short, medium and long term.” He also said migration cooperation at the border in Calais would change as part of a rethinking of refugee and asylum policy. As he prepared for his first European Council meeting with European leaders in Brussels last Thursday, Macron said: “France and Germany would lead on closer European integration with more social protection to win back the confidence of doubting lower middle classes across the bloc.
Central and eastern European and smaller states had to respect democratic values and cannot just view Europe “as a supermarket”. Chemical weapons use and disrespect of humanitarian corridors in Syria were “red lines” and France was prepared to act alone in response. He said he would engage with United States President Donald Trump and sought the US’s return to the Paris climate accords. Macron insisted that France would “strengthen” defence cooperation with the British and work more closely than before on joint counterterrorism, “because our destinies are linked: terrorist groups don’t know European borders”. But on bilateral migration agreements with Britain, he said: “I want our cooperation to evolve.”
Tackling the crisis in the West:
Macron said the biggest challenge and the starting point for his foreign policy was tackling the “crisis that is hitting western democracies”. He asked: “When you look at the planet today, what do you see? A rise in illiberal democracies, and extremes in Europe, a reappearance of authoritarian regimes that question the vitality of democracy, and the US in part withdrawing from the world. That context is worsened by a rise in uncertainty and troubles — crises are growing in the Middle East and the Gulf, inequalities are growing everywhere in the world.” He said the crisis came “in part from the profound inequalities created by the world order, and from Islamist terrorism”, but he said climate issues were also crucial. “Anyone who thinks the fight against climate change is mere whim by middle-class liberals is deeply wrong.”
Fighting illiberalism:
Macron said Europe had no choice but to become the standard-bearer in the fight against illiberalism in the world. “Because democracy was born in Europe. The US likes freedom as much as we do, but it doesn’t have our love for justice. Europe is the only place in the world where individual freedoms, the spirit of democracy and social justice are so closely joined. So the question now is: Will Europe succeed in defending the deep values it brought to the world for decades, or will it be wiped out by the rise in illiberal democracies and authoritarian regimes?”
Macron said the key to reconciling European people with the European project was to tighten rules on workers and make it harder for companies to employ cheaper labour from other EU countries or shift production to lower-wage countries, undercutting others. He said: “We have to promote a Europe that goes toward greater economic and social well-being.” For him, allowing undercutting of wages and an influx of low-paid workers on temporary assignments was sapping support for Europe and “turning the European project on its head”.
Managing the Eurozone:
“Our credibility, our efficiency, our strength is on the line.” He insisted that Germany was totally in agreement and understood the need to stand together. “National egotisms are slow poisons that bring about the weakening of democracies and a collective inability to rise up to our historic challenge,” he said, adding: “I know the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, is conscious of that.” After an election campaign in which he had strong words for central European states such as Poland and Hungary for not cooperating on refugees and respecting European values, Macron now insisted he did not believe in “a conflict between east and west in Europe”. But he nonetheless warned against certain European leaders “abandoning principles, turning their backs on Europe, having a cynical approach to the European Union that only served as dispensing credit without respecting its values”. He stated: “Europe isn’t a supermarket. Europe is a common destiny. It is weakened when it accepts its principles being rejected. The countries in Europe that don’t respect the rules should have to face the political consequences. And that’s not just an east-west debate.” He added: “I will speak to everyone with respect, but I won’t compromise on European principles — on solidarity or democratic values. If Europe were to accept that, it would mean it’s weak and had already ceased to exist.”
Ready for action in Syria:
On Syria, Macron had said after he met Putin last month that his redline was the use of chemical weapons and that France was ready to take immediate action if they were used. Asked if that meant France could strike on its own, Macron said: “Yes. When you fix redlines, if you don’t know how to make sure they are respected, you’re choosing to be weak. That’s not my choice.” He added: “If chemical weapons are used on the ground and we know how to find out their provenance, France will launch strikes to destroy the chemical weapons stocks.”
He warned of the lessons of 2013, when Barack Obama had set a red line over chemical weapons but didn’t intervene, suggesting that had sent a message to leaders such as Putin that they could have a free hand in other areas like Ukraine. “The US fixed a red line but made the choice not to intervene. What weakened France [then]? Politically defining a red line but not taking the consequences. And what therefore freed up Vladimir Putin in other theatres of operations? The fact that he saw that he had people facing him who had red lines but didn’t enforce them.”
Reigning in populism:
Asked if his election had held back populism in Europe, Macron said he was “not so arrogant” to think his election marked a complete stop to demagoguery. He said: “France is not a country that you reform, it’s a country that you transform, a country of revolution. So as long as it’s possible not to reform, France doesn’t do it. This time, people saw they were at the edge of a precipice and they reacted.” He said of his absolute majority in parliament elections last week, that cemented the collapse of the decades-old traditional French parties, as well as being seen abroad as holding back populism: “My election, and my majority in parliament are not the end of something: They are a challenging beginning. It’s the start of a French renaissance, and I hope a European one.” He said he wanted to bring back ambition and “not play on fears, but transform them into energy”. He added: “Fears are still there and what divides societies is still there. There are no magic solutions, it’s a combat for every day.” He said the issue was to appeal to the intelligence of citizens. “What exhausts democracies is politicians who think their fellow citizens are stupid ... The crisis of western imagination is a huge challenge and it’s not one person alone who will change it. But I want to get back the line of history and energy of the European people, to hold back the rise of extremes and demagoguery. Because that’s a battle of civilisation.” Angelique Chrisafis is the Guardian’s Paris correspondent.
This interview was conducted jointly by Guardian, Le Figaro, El Pais, Gazeta Wyborcza, Suddeutsche Zeitung, Le Temps, Le Soir, Corriere della Serra.