When Sir Clive met Maro...
The stereotype of rugby is an upper-class game played by white people from public school. . .I want to change that
ITOJE: Sir Clive! Nice to meet you.
SIR CLIVE: Great to meet you Maro, and to sit down with you for the first time. We’re on the eve of the World Cup, which I believe is really open. You have a great team and a big chance in Japan. How are you feeling about the opportunity ahead?
ITOJE: I am incredibly excited. A World Cup is the one thing in rugby I have not experienced yet. I can’t wait. Growing up, watching World Cups was the highlight of the sport as a fan. It’s a great opportunity for the team and myself to showcase what we’re truly about and where we can take our game. It’s going to be a oncein-a-lifetime moment.
SIR CLIVE: World Cups can be scary stuff, believe me. I was lucky enough to be involved in a team that won one, but after being knocked out in 1999 by South Africa I have never felt so down. Four years later it was a huge relief. Do you think the whole team gets how big this is?
ITOJE: It’s a huge opportunity. The team understands that. The closer we get to it, the more real it becomes.
SIR CLIVE: What about the draw itself — France, Argentina... that looks a tough pool to me for England.
ITOJE: I don’t think we’re worried about it. When we play well we win. It’s as simple as that. If we play well we win all those games. We are not a team that needs the opposition to have an off day for us to win. We are a team that backs ourselves, if we play well and bring what we know, what we can bring — we will get the result.
SIR CLIVE: As a squad you have never been shy about your chances in Japan — does that permeate from Eddie Jones?
ITOJE: The goal is to win the World Cup. There’s no two ways about it. That’s what we’ve aimed to do, that’s what we are aspiring to do. We know there’s a lot of work that must go into it, but we are not
going there for participation medals. We are going there to make a difference.
SIR CLIVE: In your short career you’ve won every competition you’ve played in. You’re 24 but have won two Six Nations titles including a Grand Slam, three European Cups, European Player of the Year 2016, four Premiership titles, an Under 20s World Cup, the LV Cup... ITOJE: And the ‘A-League’!
SIR CLIVE: There we go! How do you manage to keep your feet on the ground, as someone who has achieved so much so early?
ITOJE: Sport moves so quickly. Every moment you’re in, when you’re in it, feels like the biggest moment you have ever been in. A couple of months ago we played the European Cup final with Saracens. That felt massive. Then we played the Premiership final three weeks later — that then felt bigger. The European Cup was old news.
I am very fortunate to be part of teams that are full of competitive individuals, with England and at Saracens. There is no time for complacency.
There is no time to think “I’ve won a couple of trophies, that’s it, I can go on holiday and have fun now”. That’s not even in the vocabulary. Throughout my career I have always thought about what’s next — are we going to go again, or just take part? Are we going to rest on our laurels, or are we going to get better?
It’s never sitting back to look through photo albums and seeing what you used to do, it’s about what you are doing, and what you are going to do.
SIR CLIVE: I see you in a similar way to Jonny Wilkinson. He made his debut at 18, was still very young by 2003, and went to achieve everything in the game. You started your England career at 21 in 2016. What in your mind has changed from then to 2019?
ITOJE: I wasn’t really involved in the 2015 World Cup. I came into the pre- season before the tournament, spent two weeks with the squad, then was dropped. Within those two weeks we did very little rugby.
However, from the observations I can make and what I have heard from the conversations I have had with people who spent more time in that squad, I think it’s a lot more player- empowered now. The players take more ownership over the things that they do. They contribute more to what they think is right and wrong.
Even from when I first got in to where we are now — 2016 to 2019 — there is a big difference in that regard as well. Players take ownership of the week, are more in control of how they react in certain situations.
When we first started it was a lot more coach-led, we had a million and one meetings, but now most — if not all the meetings — are player led. The coaches still have an incredibly important role, but it’s much more player driven.
SIR CLIVE: You are already part of the leadership group aged only 24. How have you adapted to that?
ITOJE: I don’t think I am the most vocal person in the team. There’s a whole load of players who will be much more vocal than me off the field. As I have grown in this environment I have felt more comfortable to speak up in certain situations.
I have also begun to realise how important it is to lead by example. What I find is even when you think you’re not being watched you are being watched.
How you conduct yourself, how you talk and relate to other people is all part of a message that you’re trying to get across to others. I have begun to realise the potential influence I can have on my teammates both positively and negatively — if my actions aren’t conducive to the team doing well.
SIR CLIVE: You’re one of the
In the second of our exclusive
SIR CLIVE WOODWARD interviews ahead of the Rugby World Cup, the triumphant England head coach from 2003 meets MARO ITOJE...
role models and — without embarrassing you — superstars of this team. With that in mind, where would you like to see rugby getting to socially, and as a sport when you compare it to others?
ITOJE: I would love rugby to become as big as possible. It is a great game, a great sport. There is a large appeal for rugby and it is growing. I came to rugby late. I don’t come from a rugby background. From where it was to where it is now is miles apart.
SIR CLIVE: This England squad has lots of different backgrounds and cultures — do you see that as something that can create a strong bond in the squad?
ITOJE: I think so. Sport in general has the power to do that, in our case rugby. Sport is a great unifier. It can bring people together like a whole load of government policies can’t. Sport at its best is one of the great things of this world.
SIR CLIVE: I always ask athletes: how do you want to be remembered? First in the 80 minutes, and secondly in 20 years’ time. What would you say to that?
ITOJE: Over the 80 minutes I would like to be remembered as extremely physical, tough and unrelenting. Constantly at them, full of energy, bounce. When I am at my best, that’s how I am.
In 20 years’ time I would have liked to have had an impact on a generation. Winning, trophies and individual awards are important but in 20 years people remember how you made them feel, rather than what you have done.
Eventually that becomes old news, and someone else is doing bigger or better things. I would like to be remembered for the impact I have had on the game. I hopefully would have had a positive impact on the younger generation — maybe the older generation too — and maybe change the stereotypes or narrative of the game of rugby.
SIR CLIVE: Martin Johnson used to say to the first element of that question, “if everyone does their job properly we should win the game”. That was a powerful thing to put it on the individual, which has stuck with me. Your second answer is fascinating — a lot of athletes would not be concerned by their social impact, they just want to win on Saturday. Why do you feel that you particularly have that wider responsibility?
ITOJE: If I look at the athletes I most admire they would be guys like Magic Johnson, Muhammad Ali. They were outstanding athletes, but if they just did what they did with regards to their sport — if that is all they were — I don’t think they would resonate as much with me. I don’t know if it’s my responsibility per se, but it’s something I would like to have a wider impact on because I know how it feels from a fan’s point of view.
I have not watched a full game of basketball that Magic Johnson has played in. I have watched a couple of documentaries, and interviews, but barely a quarter of a game with him involved. Obviously he was an outstanding sportsman, but I don’t think people remember him for that PA reason — they remember him because of the wider impact he’s had on the game.
SIR CLIVE: Do people contact you about that sort of thing, rather than just how you play?
ITOJE: They do. I get quite a few messages on social media. Representation matters — whether it’s sport, politics, business, movies — it does matter. It’s important. The stereotype of rugby is that it’s an upper-class game played by white people who went to public school.
Growing up watching rugby, when I truly got interested in it was when I watched a Six Nations game in the boarding house at Harrow. I saw Ugo Monye playing — I was suddenly drawn to Ugo playing as he looked like me.
SIR CLIVE: He’d be very flattered! ITOJE: Well, maybe a bit different! He was a guy with Nigerian descent as well, and played for England. It was amazing. That kind of representation is important. The same applies whether you want to be a businessman, a lawyer, a politician or a sportsperson — I always think when you see someone who has a similar background and a story to you in those positions, it feels much more real and attainable.
SIR CLIVE: What do people say to you when they see you playing for England?
ITOJE: I’ve had mothers come up to me. It’s interesting — the people who talk to me face to face are normally adults on behalf of their kids, and kids come to me on social media. That probably tells you the difference between generations! They say that they are proud, that their child looks up to me and they appreciate how I go about my business.
SIR CLIVE: Maro, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you properly for the first time. I wish you the best of luck in Japan. The World Cup is a scary tournament, but if you take your great attitude into it I know you’ll be ready.