Gove claims ‘Wales has best of both worlds’ with two governments
UK GOVERNMENT minister Michael Gove has said relations between the UK and Welsh Government have “never been better”.
Despite repeated criticism, particularly from Welsh Government ministers, of UK Government policy and its handling of the pandemic, Mr Gove said people in Wales got the “best of both worlds” by having UK and Welsh governments.
On a visit to Merthyr Tydfil on Thursday to see projects receiving UK Government Levelling Up funding, Mr Gove said that while he “respects” the Welsh Government, “they can’t have their cake and eat it”.
We asked him about a number of areas where the UK Government had received criticism. Here’s what he told the Echo...
Why would you like the UK Government to have a say in levelling-up cash? The Welsh Government are much closer to the ground than your government is in Whitehall so why do you think Westminster can do it better?
Well, we’ve worked with Welsh Government and we are adding value. People in Wales benefit from having two governments, devolution is the best of both worlds for Wales. And we also work with local government as well. So the Community Renewal Fund and the Levelling Up are channelled direct to people in local government who are even closer to their communities.
And as you can see, the leaders of Merthyr Tydfil council and Rhondda Cynon Taf are both very strong, powerful, locally elected, locally accountable people with whom you’ve worked. And of course, we want to make sure that we can continue to work with local government and with the Senedd and with the Welsh Government, because we’re stronger together.
On HS2, the Welsh Affairs Select Committee said that should have been reclassified, your government didn’t do that, why? And will today’s announcement about the new element of HS2 be Barnetised?
Well, again, one of the things about transport across the union is that a union connectivity review, led by Peter Hendy, is going to report shortly. I can’t pre-empt what it’s going to say but we’ve stressed that when we think about transport across the whole of the United Kingdom, we need to think holistically.
But in terms of HS2, Wales is losing out to the tune of billions of pounds.
Well, I think it’s wrong to think of it in this way. I’d say two things. The first thing is HS2 and investment overall benefits every citizen in the United Kingdom. It improves productivity for the whole country. But it’s also the case that we are providing the Welsh Government with the highest level of funding since devolution through the block grant so that they can spend it on their own priorities as well.
And, as people know, public spending per capita is higher in Wales than it is in England, quite right too, and the community renewal fund and money that is being spent here in Merthyr is significantly higher in Wales than in any other part of the United Kingdom.
On Universal Credit. There are plenty of people who live in this constituency to whom that £20 meant the world, so why did you end it?
It was only ever intended to be a specific intervention to help during the pandemic... Now, as we’re moving out of the pandemic and again, we mustn’t be complacent, but as we’re moving out of the pandemic, we can see a return to normal.
But we’re not out of the pandemic yet and that £20 would still be crucial to those people.
Overall, in the support that we’ve given both through furlough and through the Universal Credit uplift, we provided from central government one of the most generous packages of support of any developed country, of any developed economy. But you can’t keep spending at that level forever, it’s unsustainable, and we need to bring spending overall under control. And yet, at the same time as bringing spending under control, it’s still the case that public spending and investment in public services is at a record high, and for people who argue that they should be spending more on Universal Credit or in any other particular government programme there’s an obligation to say what they would cut or which taxes they would increase.
On coal tips, your government has
refused to give the £600m that was asked for. That’s going to need to come from health or education or other devolved areas. So are you just passing that buck to choose between those two things?
The whole point about devolution is that this is a devolved area. It’s the Welsh Government’s direct responsibility.
There are some in the Welsh Government who, when we act in a way that sees the UK Government giving additional investment in Wales, they say that’s wrong. So there are some in the Welsh Government who have criticised, for example, the funding in the Community Renewal Fund and the Levelling Up fund, and yet at the same time, they also say that we need to provide additional funding to something that is a devolved responsibility.
As I mentioned earlier, the block grant that we’re giving to the Welsh Government is the biggest ever. So within those resources, there’s an opportunity for the Welsh Government to deal with the coal tips issue.
I respect the Welsh Government, love working with them, but they can’t have their cake and eat it. Either they welcome additional funding in devolved areas or they don’t.
During the pandemic there has been a lot of mixed messaging with UK Government. But usually, the press conferences fail to mention that it is different in Wales, and that the rules are different. Why is it so hard in their public statements for your colleagues to stand up and explain that England and Wales are two different places?
I think everyone knows England and Wales are two very different places... I can’t think of a time when people have been more aware of the nature of devolution than during the Covid crisis, as each of the First Ministers have been having regular press conferences, quite rightly so, explaining their position to their citizens and their electors and there’s been a consistent message throughout...
The intergovernmental relations are better than they’ve ever been and that is because all of us are committed to making sure that devolution works.
And one of the reasons that I’m here is not just for the British Irish Council meeting, but also to talk to Mark Drakeford to make sure that that strong relationship becomes even stronger, and that the fantastic work that Simon and the Wales Office have been doing is appreciated by everyone in Wales.
Do you think that strong relationship could see Wales thrive as an independent nation?
I think Wales is one of the most amazing places in the world and of course it could, but I think it would be a huge mistake for people to want to speculate about separation, because the United Kingdom is the single most successful state in the world.
And it’s successful because of the contribution that people from Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England make to it. We have the most diverse cabinet, the most diverse parliament, the most diverse leadership in all public institutions of any developed democracy and we have that because we are a multicultural, multi-national, multi-ethnic state, that shares attachment to the rule of law, to respect for property rights, to democracy, equality and decency.
These are British UK virtues, and it’s as a consequence of the contribution of people in Wales that made our institutions like the NHS, of course, founded by Nye Bevan, and like the BBC, whose best presenter, of course, is Huw Edwards.