Fab Four on English rugby’s boom and hopes of glory
Aviva Premiership semi-finals
Mick Cleary We have had a turbulent 12 months on the coaching front, with Mike Ford and Richard Cockerill sacked along with Andy Robinson at Bristol and, indeed, Aaron Mauger also at Leicester. Dai, has it got worse? Is the ‘hire ’em and fire ’em’ mentality of football coming in to rugby?
Dai Young It’s not at football levels – yet. We’d all like to think people at our clubs would have more sense and not be knee-jerk. Success, though, can be measured in different ways. When I came to Wasps [in 2011] staying up was a bloomin’ success. So, it is not necessarily about winning things but it is about progress, about moving forward.
Matt, early days of course, [he was at Leicester previously in 2010-13] but do you sense anything different? Matt O’connor The investment is higher, it is resourced more, so there is probably more impatience that goes with that.
Rob, boy and man at Exeter, are they more rooted as a club?
Rob Baxter It does seem more grounded. We’ve worked our way up [from the Championship in 2011] and people know that there are 12 clubs who all want to be successful.
Leicester have made it through for the 13th year in succession, yet have dismissed two coaches. Where’s the failure in all that? MO Social media plays a significant part. The instant opinion has a voice. And that snowballs and affects people’s views.
Mark, you said last week
on winning the Champions Cup that it wasn’t about trophies, it was about performance. Don’t trophies matter, really?
Mark Mccall There are lots of good clubs with good set-ups who haven’t won trophies. Saracens have tried it the other way, changing coach every season, 13 in 14 years. The clubs consistently there or thereabouts have had the same people. Continuity and stability matter.
Is there more stress these days? DY No one does this job if you don’t care. You feel the losses.
There is more money on the line. Does that matter, Rob? RB Yes, a bit. We are investing more in players, so there is more pressure there. That day-to-day responsibility does gnaw at you. You’ve got to deal with that. You have to get past the emotional highs and lows or you’ll be spent, shot to pieces, pretty quickly.
MO The margins are tighter here. I’ve coached in Ireland and Australia and this is the best competition in the world because it is so tight. If you don’t perform against Worcester or Newcastle or whoever, you lose.
Has the quality across the board gone up then? MO Yes. MM Definitely. It is a better product for sure, more tries than ever before.
Is that incidental, the way the game has evolved, or is it a push to get more bums on seats to pay the bills by entertaining?
DY It’s a factor when you go to a new city, a new stadium and you need a new crowd. That’s why we signed big names such as Kurtley Beale. I don’t feel a responsibility to entertain,
I feel a responsibility to win.
Promotion and relegation don’t feature in the southern hemisphere, Matt. What’s your view here?
MO It’s a really positive thing. Super Rugby and Pro12 both lack something. You’d hate to see the Premiership ring-fenced, because every point matters.
What is the benchmark for your clubs? The play-offs?
MM It is an indication of consistency over 22 games. You can win or lose semi-finals and finals. To reach the play-offs is a benchmark.
Will we still need play-offs when the Test players will become more available after the global
season changes in 2020?
MO If you had your international players you could go to first-pastthe-post. But knockout rugby does add excitement. There is no downside to that.
RB Even if your Test player is available he might have played three internationals in a row and need a rest.
MO Having a showpiece Twickenham final in front of 80,000 people is also an upside.
What about the 11-month season that is being proposed for 2020? DY Already got one, haven’t we? And the Lions?
MM I’m not looking forward to September. The people who need the longest pre-season get the shortest. An 11-month season is not right. It’s not fair on the players. Everyone wants their pound of flesh.
RB It’s different for every player. Some are knocking your door down to play every week. You need flexibility. There should be no hard-and-fast rules.
How has the return to the Premiership been for you, Matt?
MO It’s been a four-year hiatus and the standard has gone right up. It’s the best competition in the world. It is run the best, the stakes are the highest, the crowds too, and it has the most integrity. I’d hate to see it go down the 11-month season route. So much is positive up here. Don’t throw that away. Super Rugby over-reached itself and look what has happened.
Are you all constantly on the lookout for the next Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje, Jack Nowell etc?
MO One thing that has changed since I was last here is the quality of the young English kids.
RB The young guys are genuine flag-bearers for the game. Kids want to be them, to be sporting icons. Jack Nowell, Henry Slade and that generation at Exeter have given us a boost, with them progressing through to our first team rather than heading off to someone else’s. That was a big change for us.
Overseas against home-grown players. Is that ratio right?
MM I’ve got a suggestion. I’d like to see consideration given in the salary cap to clubs who do develop young players who go on to become international players, so their value goes up. If England want to continue this conveyor belt, well, put it this way, if we have developed five players, is it right we might have to sell two of them because we can’t afford them anymore? And that’s a possibility to be honest.
MO In Aussie rugby league, the salary cap is policed so hard that there is a huge turnover of squads, as clubs can’t afford to keep hold of all their stars so they move on. There need to be some smart conversations to address this, an allowance, a wild card, for those you have brought through.
MM We want encouragement to invest in our academies.
RB It shouldn’t just be all English players in a club, though. It’s good to have an outside influence. The mix in the Premiership is actually fantastic.
MO The marquee dispensation [for two players outside the salary cap] has enabled the Premiership to attract those top players who were going to France three years ago.
The Lions? How will they go?
MO They should go well. It’s a great squad. If the Lions win the first Test they can win the series.
DY The Lions have got the players. I don’t think the All Blacks can afford too many injuries.
RB Mind you, watching Super Rugby, it looks to me as if the Kiwis have taken it up a notch again, cranking it up for the Lions.
How are your Lions boys, Mark?
MM We haven’t spoken about it. You can only wish them well. As we all do.
For tickets to the Aviva Premiership Final on May 27 visit premiershiprugby.com/finaltickets. Aviva is giving away two season tickets per club for next season at viva.co.uk/advantages