‘Labour should allow reform so that justice is devolved in Wales’
What does the Welsh Government expect from the next Labour government at Westminster in terms of devolution? Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution Mick Antoniw speaks to Political editor-at-large Martin Shipton
LABOUR should commit in its next general election manifesto to start the process towards devolving the justice system to Wales, Counsel General Mick Antoniw has said.
The Pontypridd MS, who is also the Welsh Government’s Minister for the Constitution, additionally wants further commitments to overturn “power grabs” by Westminster aimed at rolling back devolution in areas like the distribution of post-Brexit regional aid funds.
He acknowledged there was a “haggling” process to be gone through in drawing up the manifesto and that no commitment had yet been made.
But he said he had been heartened by the positive reception for former prime minister Gordon Brown’s recent report for the Labour Party which advocates significant constitutional reform.
In recent years there has been an increasingly fractious relationship between the Welsh and UK governments, much of it linked to the consequences of Brexit.
But while Welsh Government ministers like Mr Antoniw have been highly critical of actions taken by the UK Government, there has been no certainty that a future UK Labour government would behave in accordance with Welsh Labour’s wishes.
Indeed, the alarm bells rang when Welsh Labour’s deputy leader, Carolyn Harris, the MP for Swansea East, said on a TV programme late last year that she was against the devolution of policing to Wales.
Speaking exclusively to the Western Mail, Mr Antoniw said he would “love” to see a commitment to the devolution of justice in Labour’s manifesto for the next general election, likely to be held in 2024.
He said: “I would love to see that in there. It is part of the Welsh Government’s aspirations.
“It is Welsh Labour policy, but I recognise the reality is how quickly could you devolve justice.
“Even if we had a friendly government in power [at Westminster], how quickly would you want to do it?
“I think we would take a decade – 10 to 15 years probably – to do that and make sure it happened in a way that did genuinely deliver justice rather than just result in a lot of bureaucratic controls transferring to one body probably without the adequate financial resource that was needed.”
Asked wheth- er he thought there was appetite within UK Labour to devolve the justice system to Wales, Mr Antoniw said: “If the report from Gordon Brown is adopted, I think the appetite is for reform. “I think there is certainly a recognition of the need for change, to bring power closer to the people.
“For me, one of the biggest challenges in reform is how the parliamentary system needs to change to adapt to that, to recognise the decentralisation of power. “What we have is a system that hasn’t caught up with a changing environment of people.” Asked whether he had been troubled that Carolyn Harris appeared to be against reform, Mr Antoniw said:
“It doesn’t trouble me. I disagree with the position she expressed on policing, particularly at a time when all the democratically elected police and crime commissioners want to see policing devolved, and where policing is clearly part of the justice system.
“I think what it shows is that the debate in different areas is at a lot of different stages with a lot of different perceptions about what devolution means, what devolution of policing means, and I think the reality is that once you start exploring that with people, I don’t think there are strong logical counter-arguments to it.
“I think it was disappointing that that comment was made off the cuff, suddenly in a TV programme. It is certainly not Welsh Labour policy.
“The reality of constitutional reform is that you are embracing a whole series of views – some informed, some less informed, some more traditional than others and so on.
“The whole nature of constitutional debate is about changing culture, changing politics and really addressing the future about where power lies and how you make it work better for people.
“We have to be able to have frank, open and friendly debates about this. If everyone comes into this with the aspiration that we want to make people’s lives better, if that is the starting point, then it should be possible to make progress.
“What I see as my role in this is to try to explain and illustrate how important this is, and how if we really want to achieve some of the aspirations we have, then we have to have radical reform.”
Explaining the mechanism that would lead to any future manifesto commitments, Mr Antoniw said: “We have a policy conference that effectively determines the manifesto. Obviously the views of Welsh Government ministers and the First Minister are really important in that.
“For the general election, the First Minister and the elected NEC [national executive committee] member for Wales Carwyn Jones are on there, so the Welsh voice will be there.
“There is always a strong level of engagement in the build-up to those on policy areas.
“Manifestos are a haggling process. What’s important is the work that’s done leading up to that, so when you come to delivering the manifesto, there’s already a clear indication as to these are the things we want to do. It’s a question of how do you present them in the manifesto and where you put them within the list of priorities.
“I think constitutional reform is going to be a real priority. I think there’s a recognition now that if there isn’t a change in what we’ve seen in Westminster in particular, our politics and democracy will suffer significantly.”
Mr Antoniw said he’d like to see the devolution of policing sooner rather than later.
“To some extent a lot of it’s happening already,” he said. “There is a lot of contact between the Welsh Government and the police over social justice issues – and we are employing effectively 600 police community support officers. There is no logical argument against the devolution of policing to Wales.
“We are the vanguard – Wales in many ways is a leader in thinking on reform, and I think that is why the First Minister is so respected in the discussions that take place between the Labour leaders in some of the big metropolitan counties in England.
“People are looking to Wales to see how change can be achieved. I think that’s a process that is ongoing.”
Asked whether he would like a commitment from UK Labour to roll back “power grabs” that had been made in devolved areas by the current Westminster government, especially in relation to post-Brexit regional aid, Mr Antoniw said: “We need a financial system that is not reactive – currently we only get a consequential payment in a [policy] area if something is decided in England. I think that’s really outdated and is one of the dysfunctions in the current economic system.
“Yes – there does need to be financial reform. I think it’s one of the things that’s being increasingly discussed. How do you fund all the things you want to do – and how do you do it fairly?
“Do you redistribute wealth in a more fair and equitable way that also supports a growing economy?
“The Internal Market Act [which took regulatory powers away from the devolved institutions] is a disgrace and should be gone.
“I’m afraid it is centralising governments that want to use finance as a way of overturning devolution and constitutional rights. It’s about centralised control. I think the whole ethos of Gordon Brown’s report and what we want to see achieved with constitutional reform is not about centralisation. It’s about decentralisation and subsidiarity [where decisions are made at the most locally appropriate level] and better governance.”