Macron and Le Pen go head-to-head in French presidential debate
It was billed as a match between two presidential candidates – one who inspired fear and the other loathing.
In the much-anticipated debate on Wednesday night, Marine Le Pen set out to show the French should not be afraid to give her a chance to run the country, while Emmanuel Macron was determined to fix his image of the man the French love to hate.
Above all, both were anxious to show they understood the daily lives and worries of their compatriots over a range of subjects including the effects of the war in Ukraine, healthcare, pensions, Covid, Europe, taxes, immigration, ecology and the cost of living.
The two-and-a-half hour exchange, screened on television, radio and online from 9pm local time, began civilly with a smiling Le Pen saying she would be the president of “respect and common sense”.
Le Pen had drawn lots to speak first and opened by addressing the cost of living crisis, which polls show is the number one concern for French voters. She spoke of reducing taxes permanently to give French families between €150 to €200 (£125 to £166) extra each month per household.
“An absolute priority for the next year will be giving back the French their money,” she said promising to reduce VAT on fuel and energy.
Macron, looking more serious, said his approach to “people’s anger about struggling to make ends meet” was to freeze prices during the cost of living crisis as an emergency measure. “This is more efficient than a drop in VAT,” he added. “And you voted against it.”
“I want something lasting, like leaving the European electricity market, not something temporary,” Le Pen said in response.
The first real clash came over salaries, when Macron dismissed Le Pen’s suggestion she would increase wages by 10%.
“The president doesn’t decide salaries, that’s down to employers,” Macron said. “You are trying to make people believe you will increase salaries by 10% and it’s not true.”
“And you are trying to make people believe you will increase bonuses,” Le Pen hit back.
The face-off was a challenge for both. Le Pen could not stop herself smirking and appearing to mock Macron as he spoke, and Macron could not shake his habit of explaining policies in detail in headteacher fashion.
Macron is an experienced and sharp debater, which Le Pen is not. While he struggled to correct her “incoherent” proposals with facts without sounding patronising, she relied on soundbites and emotive expressions of “astonishing”, “shocking”, “unacceptable”, jumping from one subject to another and floundering on details.
There were the expected hot topics: Macron mentioned Russia, claiming that Le Pen’s well-publicised loan from a Russian bank with links to the Kremlin made her “dependent” and influenced her political decisions.
“You cannot defend the interests of France because your interests are linked to Russian powers,” Macron said. “In 2015 you took out a loan with a Russian bank and you still have not paid it back.” This prompted Le Pen, a cat breeder in her spare time, to show her claws. “He knows I am a free woman, I am a patriot. I have always defended France and the French. Always and in all circumstances,” she said.
The exchange was equally fractions over France’s future relationship with the European Union. Le Pen has said she wants to say in the EU but create an alliance of European nations, which would sideline the European Commission. Macron said this was the equivalent of Frexit by stealth.
Le Pen said: “You have a narrow vision of France as a continental power, but it should once again become a global power.”
The debate, while animated, became increasingly tetchy and combative. When Macron called Le Pen “climate sceptic”, she batted back calling him a “climate hypocrite”.
“Stop confusing everything, Madame Le Pen,” he said. “Stop giving lessons Mr Macron,” she retorted.
With everything to win or lose, Macron, 44, had to avoid sounding arrogant and headmasterly and Le Pen, 53, had to appear calm, credible and above all moderate to win over the 40% of floating voters who did not support either in the first round 10 days ago, especially the 7.7 million who voted for the radical left candidate Jean-Luc Mélenchon.
The face-off was moderated by two journalists well known to French audiences, and each candidate had equal time to answer questions on a range of subjects and their policies. The debate
is a big event in French presidential elections since it was introduced in 1974. Only Jacques Chirac refused to debate his second-round rival, the farright leader Jean-Marie Le Pen, Marine’s father, in 2002, saying to do so would legitimise Le Pen’s extreme views.
After a disastrous performance in the 2017 presidential debate, Le Pen was far better prepared this time. She had been advised to play the mother of the nation – advice she failed to take in 2017.
Five years on, Macron is no longer the political arriviste and was able to carry his arguments with the weight of presidential experience, albeit with mixed results.
Other thorny issues were Le Pen’s plans to ban the Islamic headscarf in public places, exempt the under-30s from income tax and hold a referendum to bypass the constitution to clamp down on immigration and introduce nationalist French-first policies for jobs, benefits and healthcare.
Le Pen was more comfortable on her specialist subject, crime and insecurity: she lamented the increased “barbarity” in the country and blamed it on “anarchic and massive immigration”. She promised to “rearm the police” and toughen up the legal system creating 25,000 extra prison places. “I have a lot to say on this issue,” she said when reminded of her time limit.
Macron said he had already created thousands of new police and gendarmes and promised to reform the legal and prison systems.
Allowed to return to the subject, Le Pen promised to tackle Islamic extremism with a new law and called for a “Republic that is proud of itself and not ashamed”. Radical mosques had to be closed and those migrants considered a security risk deported. “I am for the banning of the headscarf in the public place, it’s a uniform imposed by Islamic extremists,” she added.
Macron replied: “What is worrying is that you go from terrorism to Islam and on to foreigners, you are confusing all the problems. In the housing estates, what you saying will cause civil war. It is very serious.”
Much of the debate was technical. The question of pensions and the official retirement age is an extremely complicated issue that is difficult to clarify in a television clash.
The debate ran 20 minutes over the two-and-a-half hours. It ended on a remarkably civilised note. Macron finished by thanking Le Pen for the debate saying “I respect you as a person...though we have sincere disagreements.”
Le Pen chose a more vigorous summing up, promoting her programme for “the French, for all the French”.
The latest opinion poll from Ipsos suggests Macron has a 12 point lead over Le Pen for the second-round vote, with him winning with 56% and her on 44%, with a 1.1% margin of error. However, 13% of those voters did not say for whom they would vote. Of those who said they would abstain or vote blank, 43% said they may change their mind on the day.
A poll by BFMTV of a sample of its viewers found that 59% considered Macron convincing while 39% were won over by Le Pen.