Norristown police chief talks about race, justice
In this March 2015 file photo, Norristown Police Chief Mark Talbot speaks with area residents at a public COMPSTAT meeting.
NORRISTOWN » Norristown Police Chief Mark Talbot is ready to start having “really difficult conversations.”
“I spent most of my career studiously avoiding very many public conversations about race, and I have come to think I can’t do that anymore. I can’t,” Talbot said in a phone interview last week following two weeks of protests after the Memorial Day death of George Floyd that has rocked the nation and world with protests.
Floyd, who was black, died while in custody of four Minneapolis police officers. The four officers have since been charged with murder and other related offenses. Thousands of people have taken to the streets in a number of major metropolitan areas, including Philadelphia, calling for racial justice.
“I think the worst thing that could have happened is if a man gets killed in such a vicious way
by someone who has sworn an oath to protect him, and people sat in their houses and did nothing,” Talbot said. “I think that would be the worst possible response, and I think what we saw means that … I think everybody should be out. I wish I saw more people out.”
In Montgomery County, peaceful demonstrations have been held in nearly every town, including in Ambler, Lansdale, Pottstown, Souderton and Norristown.
“I am very pleased as the police chief that it’s been peaceful. All of my experiences with these protests have been peaceful,” he said. “Some of the rhetoric has been uncomfortably critical of policing, but we deserve it, and I guess I’m uncomfortable because I both appreciate peaceful protesters, and I understand the chaos that some places have seen. I get it.”
Seeing both sides
The Chester County native assumed the police department’s leadership role in 2013. As an AfricanAmerican man working in law enforcement, Talbot acknowledged his having to manage the positions is at odds within the national climate.
“You have to do your best to separate your personal feelings from your professional obligations,” he said. “So I’m sure there are lots of other people like me out there wrestling with those kinds of issues, but my perspective leaves me in a place where I both appreciate the peace, and I understand when it’s not peaceful.”
Talbot issued a statement regarding Floyd’s death in a June 2 edition of The Times Herald.
“I think that everybody who sits in a leadership position in policing has an obligation to comment, and I actually had intended on saying something sooner, but I had to, frankly, wait until my own emotions
got to a place where I felt I could say something appropriate and hopefully useful,” he said.
The Norristown Police Department has 69 sworn officers who are tasked with protecting and serving within the boundaries of the municipality, according to Talbot. There are 50 police departments within local boroughs and municipalities in Montgomery County.
“I think what we’re seeing all over the country is at the very least a question being posed: Are the police a legitimate force in the United States of America? … It’s up to us to answer it through our behaviors, and it’s also becoming obvious we don’t get to say to ourselves, ‘we are great.’ The only thing we can do is accept what the public decides.”
“I don’t get to dictate whether or not I’m doing a fantastic job as a police chief. I can be infinitely proud of myself, but at the end of the day the reality is it’s not for me to say. There’s 35,000 people here, and everybody gets a vote,” Talbot continued.
‘Accessibility, trust...’
While Talbot said he could only speak to his department, he’s tried his best to implement effective protocols.
“Outrage in policing is not going to lead to anything good. Nor will it secure the constitutional rights of the people that you serve,” Talbot said. “So I insist that that is what I bring to work everyday — is that type of understanding, and I insist that’s what this police department delivers in our interactions.”
For the Norristown Police Department, Talbot said accessibility, trust and legitimacy are three main pillars. He also emphasized the need for transparency, and the ability to receive constructive criticism.
“You have to have positive interactions. You have to keep people safe. You have to treat people with dignity and respect ... you have to be very mindful of both what people want, and what they need. You have to listen to what’s being said,” Talbot said. “I think there’s a fundamental list of things that a responsible police department needs to do, and you’re gonna do it, and you have to have a system in place that is able to detect deficiencies in your operation.”
For Talbot, and so many others in law enforcement, the need to have effective policing strategies is paramount when dealing with stressful, and potentially life and death situations. “You literally ... have the lives of the people that you serve in your hands. The decisions you make can meaningfully play a role in whether or not somebody lives or dies. That is a heavy lift,” Talbot said.
He added that he feels the “weight of that every single day.”
‘We don’t create them’
In the weeks since Floyd’s death, protesters across the country have demanded action and overall police reform. While there have been previous instances of police brutality taking place, most recently during protests, Talbot was driven to remind people that not all cops are “bad police officers.” He suggested taking a proactive approach and having conversations within departments to start making these improvements.
“We need to recognize that there’s no sane police chief that teaches or leads for bias or discrimination or racism,” Talbot said. “… We are all committed to getting bad police officers out of our organizations.
“We don’t create them, you know? We may hire them, but we didn’t create that. We’ve got to expand this discussion and start to talk about how did they get like that before they got into the police department? And as well as what did we do with them after they became ours?” he continued.
In other places, leaders at the local level, like the Minneapolis City Council, endorsed the idea to “defund and dismantle the city’s police department,” CNN reported on June 8.
While Talbot said he couldn’t speak to the situation in the Midwestern metropolis, he was steadfast in his belief of having police presence in low-income neighborhoods.
“The reality of our country is poor and marginalized members of the community absolutely need the protection of the police. That is one thing that I am certain of. They need the protection of the police,” he said. “Hopefully they don’t need to be protected from the police ... is what I believe is what is driving that conversation.”
As of July 1, 2019, Norristown had an estimated population of 34,341 people and a 21.7 percent poverty rate, according to data from the U.S. Census Bureau. Montgomery County had an estimated 830,915 residents with a 5.9-percent poverty rate reported as of July 1, 2019, according to U.S. Census figures.
How would defunding
police work in a borough within the third most populous county in the state? Talbot answered he couldn’t say for sure, but he said he is in favor of including personnel with expertise in a number of other “public safety” areas.
“Mental health, drug addiction, education, recreation: these are the things that are often missing from troubled neighborhoods, and if by ‘defunding,’ what we’re talking about is we’re gonna reduce the footprint of guys and ladies with guns, and we’re gonna increase our capacity to deal with all of these other social maladies that are in our communities, then do it,” Talbot said. “And I would ask: Why did we ever think the answer to an enormous number of social, psychological, economic issues... why did we ever think the issue was send in the cops?”
‘Difficult conversations’
Talbot said he firmly believed that having these “difficult conversations” surrounding race is becoming more and more important.
“I think what has for the vast majority of my career seemed like issues that were private and personal are starting to seem public and professional,” he said.
Talbot reflected on changes throughout the industry during his roughly 30-year tenure working in law enforcement. While Talbot acknowledged there have been changes in the right direction over the years, he added that law enforcement, which aims to protect and serve, is in a “unique place.”
“We are far better than we used to be,” he said. “The problem is we have not evolved as far as the public wants us to have evolved. So the gap is one in which we are currently failing to meet the current standards of decency, fairness and justice.”
“I think ... we’ve got to look at that gap, and we have to determine how much of that gap is mediated by race and class and ethnicity.”