‘Remember me as a true African nationalist’

IN 2014, former Deputy Editor of The Sunday Mail Munyaradzi Huni (MH) interviewed the late former Tanzanian President

Dr Benjamin Mkapa in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, where Dr Mkapa (DM) spoke at length about Zimbabwe, the relationship between Africa and Europe, and issues to do with development. Below, we publish excerpts of the interview.

MH: Your Excellency, you were the President of Tanzania from 1995 to 2005. How has life been since you left the presidency? What’s keeping you busy these days?

DM: I have spent most of my time on the international scene because I get invited to international meetings of former Heads of State in Africa, which is exemplified by the Africa Forum under Cde Joaquim Chissano (former President of Mozambique). I am also invited to what is called the Inter Action Council, which is a Council of former Presidents and Prime Ministers worldwide. We are more than 80 or so there. I am also a member of the Club of Madrid, which also brings together former Presidents and Prime Ministers who were democratically-elected and who left office democratically.

There, we discuss the state of the world and I attend many of those meetings because I think I can present another view of Africa to the international community. Then there is the South Centre, which is the product of the work of the South Commission which was chaired by the late Mwalimu Nyerere. It sought to facilitate co-operation between countries of the south in all spheres but especially economic and social co-operation. It also

facilitates a more equitable interaction between southern and northern countries.

MH: When the Smith regime declared UDI in November 1965, clearly Dr Nyerere was furious. In his own words he said “our anger and suspicion arise from the fact that Britain is not even now — December 14, 1965 — committed to the principle of independence only on the basis of majority rule”. . .

DM: When it came to colonialism and apartheid, he had no compromise. Absolutely no compromise. He was tough.

MH: Also when Smith declared UDI, at that time Harold Wilson was the British Prime Minister. Dr Nyerere had no kind words for the British leader.

DM: Yes, of course. You remember that the Organisation of African Unity had resolved that after UDI, if the British do nothing, then we cut diplomatic relations with them. Tanzania was the first to do this and others had to be persuaded to line up with us. That shows you how committed Mwalimu was to this cause and he had to be tough and rough. This helped in terms of negotiations for independence.

MH: As host of liberation movements, how difficult was it?

DM: We would always say we will support the fighters. If you had a political party with a fighting army, we would support you. We would also urge understanding between armed groups in one country. We would say concentrate on the enemy and work for unity, for collaboration. Don’t turn guns on each other. Turn the guns on the oppressors.

I know sometimes we would be accused of favouring one liberation movement against the other, like in your country’s case there was always a question of ZAPU and ZANU. Who was more ZAPU? Zambia was more ZAPU? We were more ZANU and so on. All sorts of accusations, but the leaders would meet so often and speak frankly. They would speak among themselves and at the end of it we would be called in. There is no doubt that there was a lot of interaction and so on. There was a lot of suspicion, but in the end, thank God it all worked.

MH: If one goes to Mozambique, the places of significance to the liberation struggle in Zimbabwe are clearly marked. The places are protected. These places that used to be training camps in Tanzania, are they protected areas to show their importance?

DM: I think something is being done, but the scale could be larger. I know the South Africans have been to Morogoro where they had a major base. I think Zimbabwe has also been to Iringa where you had a very important training camp there. The preservation of those sites is still a challenge to our country because they are part of our history.

MH: What exactly do you think needs to be done to preserve these sites?

DM: We should learn from the other countries such as Cuba. How did they preserve the first place they invaded as they started their struggle? We should learn about archives, important sites and how to protect them. We are beginning slowly to do this, but we need to speed up this exercise. This doesn’t require much. The real worry is whether the new generation will appreciate the importance of preserving these things. MH: Would you say Zimbabwe has taken the lead in living the dream of Africa’s

founding fathers of total independence?

DM: Yes! It’s truly independent. It will not be pushed around. It has charted its own development path and it has taken back its land, now its resources and it has defined its destiny. That’s the best way. In terms of cooperation, with your neighbours you are ready but the other neighbours maybe somewhat slow because of influences I don’t want to talk about. So what further evidence of true independence would one want? Setting the economic independence wheels in motion. MH: In 2006, when you came to Zimba

bwe, it was really fashionable to attack and demonise the country. Some of the country’s neighbours had even joined the bandwagon of attacking Zimbabwe and President Mugabe but you went against this tide and stood by Zimbabwe. Why did you take that stance?

DM: Well, there I think you can rightly describe me as a disciple of Nyerere (laughs). He would have done the same. Yes. We played our little share in your country’s liberation struggle and why does anyone want to divide us? I know some of your neighbours were attacking you but I was speaking for Tanzania.

We have a long lasting history. The motivation was to see Zimbabwe succeed. Just as we wanted Zimbabwe to be free politically, we want to see it free economically. Your success is our success. This is a challenge to other countries to dare. You must dare! Dare! Really!

MH: Do we have such African leaders who can dare?

DM: I don’t know how you are going to identify them but I am sure there must be.

MH: At some point there was talk that you were supposed to mediate in the bilateral standoff between Zimbabwe and Britain but this mediation didn’t really take off. What happened? DM: (pause and laugh) No we didn’t take up the mediation. MH: Why?

DM: Because I am partisan (laughs). I am giving you an honest answer. I am partisan on those matters really. What can you mediate? No, no in this instance I was partisan. I don’t want to bloat my partisanship on this issue but no I couldn’t mediate. Mediate what? We played a part in the liberation of Zimbabwe and look I’m partisan when it comes to that independence. You know one of the memorable moments in my life, I vividly remember was being at Rufaro Stadium, the flag going up and the British flag going down. I represented Tanzania during those independence celebrations. I almost cried.

I couldn’t believe it. Absolutely. I was Foreign Minister and Nyerere sent me. After all that we had gone through and you people had sacrificed so much to get the Brits to lower their thing, now you want me to mediate. Mediate what? Everything is clear. I couldn’t take up the mediation. I am too partisan when it comes to Zimbabwe. No. No. No. Zimbabwe is too dear to me.

MH: The bilateral standoff between Zimbabwe and Britain continues. How exactly do you think it can be solved?

DM: I wish I could tell you that there would be a more enlightened British leadership to concede that they don’t really have a case. I wish I could say that but I don’t see that coming. Just look at the results of the last election.

How did Britain and these other countries take them? Africans, Obasanjo says the elections were largely free and fair, but they say no, not by our standards.

Well, how can I negotiate with such a people? It’s actually an insult. So will there a new breed of enlightened British leadership, I don’t know. I doubt it. But it may happen. Miracles do happen, even in politics.

MH: If one day you are to pass on, how would you want Africa to remember you?

DM: As a loyal Tanzanian. A dedicated African nationalist.